Goldberg's fundamental inhumanity, continued: Commenters outside the velvet rope bicker, jape, bogart the mike
I'd like to thank Jonah Goldberg profusely for turning yesterday's chat into the biggest bustout performance since The Who played Cincinnati. If you mailed, posted, commented, or in any other way tried to get your questions or comments in and they did not appear, I'm sorry, but we really had high demand.
To wit: Here is an incomplete sampling of tidbits that did not make it into the conversation. Many others were approved, some were deleted to make room in the queue, others I threw out because they went on for pages and pages, and these are about half of the remaining ones. There are just a lotta people eager to get their hands on Jonah! We look forward to hearing from you in upcoming chats. Here are some of the many comments that didn't make it in:
Jonah Goldberg's snide discourse on the travails of Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, opens with a mention that "Scooter" Libby is going to jail only to turn his scorn onto the "true victims here", the Wilson family.
The 'true victims' appear no where in Goldberg's story, yet they continue to suffer with their very lives because of the White House conspiracy that led America into a criminal war of aggression against a pitiful nation that couldn't have threatened the United States even if the lies the Bush gang told were true.
Not only do the lost and destroyed American and Iraqi lives constitute the true victims of Libby and his co-conspirators in the White House, but the American electorate was kept from the knowledge of this grand deceit before the 2004 presidential election. Consequently, we've got not only the criminal obstruction, but a very powerful obstruction of American democracy.
Instead printing piffle about "important hair", why doesn't the Los Angeles Times emphasize the blood spilled and the faith lost in American democracy thanks to this grotesque White House conspiracy ?
Mark T. Cody:
compare and contrast: the OJ trial and the Libby trial and verdict
Spencer Adams, L.A.:
Did you leave out the fact that Valerie Plame was, according to Hubris: The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War, by Michael Isikoff & David Corn, "the chief of operations for the CIA's Joint Task Force on Iraq, unit within the clandestine operations directorate's Counterproliferation Division, which mount[ed] espionage operations to gather information on the WMD programs Iraq might have. Her employment at the CIA was classified, and at the time of the leak, she was still undercover."?
Perhaps you were too busy writing a gossipy-cute article that spins and spins and spins what's left of the truth. I dare you to prove this wrong without attacks, avoidance or spin.
Do you see your commentary as motivated more by politics or principle? If the latter, how do you explain your propensity to ignore as long as possible the behavior of Republicans/conservatives which, if similarly displayed by Democrats/liberals, you would otherwise criticize?
Doug Hammond, former subscriber:
How did an erroneous neo-con punk like Jonas get, let alone manage to keep, a gig at the LA Times?"
Was Coulter unavailable to lower your paper's standards?
John Shutt, Marina del Rey:
Jonah Goldberg wasted no time in slinging mud back to the Left with his sarcastic story on the Wilsons.
a lot of irrelevant froth. talk about misplaced outrage.
Will Mr Goldberg ever acknowldge that Scooter Libby--who we're now being told is such a sympathetic person--is just one of seven or so people that should be going to jail for outing not just Valerie Plame but also a multi-city operation fighting the proliferation of the type of weapons that the Administration keeps telling us to be afraid of? why not a little outrage at the Administration under-cutting its own policy of "making America safe"?
Have you seen 300, and what do you make of the comparisons to Bush?
Get serious. Scooter Libby allegedly lying about who he told what, when, is more serious that people who publish legitemate national secrets?
Jonah, I would suggest that the Plame leak horrified because it seemed to come from the top and because it was personal rather than ideological. The Pentagon Papers, eg, didn't offer national enemies a human target.
The definition of torture was a White House secret.
Jonah, regarding the intelligence leaks, aside from the legal aspect, aren't some of these people ashamed by it?
The leaks have cost us tremendously in the fight against Islamofascist. Reducing our ability to track internations financial transactions, monitor contact by telephone and e-mail and reduced our ability to interogate the enemy.
Michael Chrictons understanding of the science is so limited taht you should not start there. Alarmists and Deniers are cut from the same cloth, the media is terrible..."alarmist" scientists and "skeptic scientists disagree about policy but little else. The gap in the media and public sphere though is huge
Last I heard, the State Department is part of the White House . . .
Jonah, you live in Washington I live in the Malibu, do you have any advice for those of us who don't have the outlet of a column on how to live among all the left wing hate disassociation with reality?
Bye. Thanks, Moderator, for wading through all our comments!
Jonah, What do you think about pardoning Lewis Libby NOW
Bill the Warthog:
Sorry, I left Borg out of the alien obtions. I guess liberals should quit since resistance is futile.
Oh boy. Not your finest hour Mr. G.
GP: why does Joe Wilson have better hair than Katie Couric? He spends more time and $$ on it
When will you endorse a candidate and who will it be?
Why is there no suitable conservative answer to "The Daily Show"? The new show on fox is horrible. Are conservatives or conservative politics unfunny? Are there any conservative stand-up comedians you like?
What authors did you find most helpful in understanding progressivism? (Sorry for the repeated Guiliani question -- thought the moderator had skipped it.)
The very idea seemed to be to divide and conquer the US public, which, as I've said all along, is who the real war is on.
Didn't you leave out in your article the fact that Valerie Plame was, according to Hubris: The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War, by Michael Isikoff & David Corn, "the chief of operations for the CIA's Joint Task Force on Iraq, unit within the clandestine operations directorate's Counterproliferation Division, which mount[ed] espionage operations to gather information on the WMD programs Iraq might have. Her employment at the CIA was classified, and at the time of the leak, she was still undercover."?
The only information of any significance that I got from your article today was that Wilson privately briefed the CIA supporting the president's position and an article in the Washington Post editorial page attacked him personally.What was missing in your article was information as to the Washington Post article.Was it an unsigned editorial or a signed op-ed piece? If signed, who signed it?Why didn't the administration respond to Wilson's article with facts rather than an "ad hominem" attack? You
Isn't it a bad idea to support a candidate when he "feels" conservative when his positions show otherwise?
Jonah, The Plame leak did no damage to national security.
Plame was 'involved' but did not send him. She suggested it: why shouldn't she have? He was perfectly qualified: he knew the people i Niger & the Iraqis.
TO MODERATOR: Questions should be posted at a slower rate, IMHO.
Mr. Goldberg, why don't we start with misleading the US public into the Iraq war.
Of course we can't blame islam "root and branch" but that doesn't help D'Souza's analysis...methinks foreign policy has something to do with it.
Mr. Goldberg: Immediately after the November elections, NRO was quite hard on the GOP for excessive spending and ethical lapses. Those criticisms have nearly disappeared. Why? Has the GOP regained the principles of the 1994 Revolution?
who is your favorite liberal
this is bizarre......a question free for all....is there something wrong w/ the washington post type of chat format?
GEX...how is race relevant to the plight of the Dopphins?
Regarding White House felonies: Libby was convicted for doing what Cheney wanted done. Does that ring any bells?
Your column about the Plame-Wilson family provides a particularly salient example of a common misanthropy that threads throughout your work. To what do you attribute your misanthropy?
HogWhitman, Ann Coulter would pin Bill Maher under strict college rules.
I really would like to hear your views on Rudi: why he is being accepted by so many conservatives, whether he can get nominated, and whether he would govern from the right or leave conservatives as frustrated as GWB.
I think the comparison to Clinton is crucial. The argument there was that lying under oath (perjury) was such a breach of the law that removal from office was warranted even though the underlying matter was civil. In the Libby case, there was an ongoing federal investigation which could or could not lead to an indictment. It is an obligation of all to answer truthfully (or obtain counsel and/or assert your rights not to answer). Failure to do so has consequences and is certainly as serious as lying under oath in other circumstances. Now we have a jury verdict that Libby lied. Our system of jurisprudence requires that such a jury verdict be respected and upheld. Libby is "guilty as charged." Clinton, on the other hand was not convicted. Yet the right wing press would have us throw out the jury verdict but uphold the impeachment (as if it amounted to a finding of guilt). Your oped piece today missed the important points and focused on irrelevant aspects. We will never have the opportunity to find the truth or not of the Plame "leak" in pat, because Libby was found to have lied and obstructed the investigation.
I think a majority of Americans probably share the general perspective on laws vis private morality you just outlined. So I'm confused about the heavy-handed federal position w/r/t marijuana (e.g., the strong opposition by conservatives at the federal level to state efforts at marijuana leniency). Thoughts?
I tend to trust the words of those who have worked in the Administration and left, the numerous persons who worked in the CIA, academic articles, and accurate reporting.
It's hard to talk across battle lines when we can't even agree on basic facts (i.e. Sallyh here and Plame). Has it always been like this?
How in the world can you defend in any way what the VP's office did. By exposing Plame many assests were burned in the hunt for nukes in the mid-east
"Washington Post editorial board hardly a bastion of rightwingery" Are you kidding? Ever heard of Fred Hiatt
Can you explain why the Bush administration has been so inconsistent in its communication/PR strategy, willing to camp out forever on a talking point like "as Iraqis stand up, we'll stand down," but caving on situations that seem just as survivable (e.g., referring the CIA leak to a special prosecutor)?
The issue isn't whether or not the Washington Post is right wing but if the statements in the editorial are true or false. Why do you keep dodging real questions?
Bill the Warthog:
Yeah, Jonah, tell us about your fundamental inhumanity? Are you Klingon, Romulan or Feringi?
No no, Jonah, you're a dog person. You eat KITTENS.
No, you exploited the child, an example of a fundamental misanthropy that runs throughout your work and which you seem to have no real internalized awareness of. What's that about?
Don't listen to the man! He loves puppies! (So much that he feeds them kittens!)
We discover that while we may disagree on methodology, most of us want the same things--a livable planet, affordable housing and health care, education for our children, a stable retirement.
all chatters will be assimilated!
Sallyh, there is a memory or email available that Plame wrote "suggesting" that her husband be sent. What more evidence do you want?
The definition of torture was a White House secret.
Is Valerie Plame one of the 5 unseen Cylons?
Why in the world haven't you looked into the evidence in the Libby trial? You're sure Wilson is wrong, but you don't know about LIbby?
True or false: Capt Kirk's single
Jonah, was Valerie Plame sleeping with the enemy?
Where did Wilson suggest "that he had been dispatched by Mr. Cheney to look into the matter."
Except the bottom line was the statements Wilson made in the Times op-ed, except for having been sent by Cheney, have been confirmed. And there was no Iraq nuclear WMD program, as the Kay, Duelfer and other commission have reported, and Mohammed ElBaradei reported in Feb. 2002, before the invasion. But Wilson's wrong and Cheny's vindicated?
Does it seem to you that Scooter Libby did probably lie about having learned about Plame from Russert? Mickey Kaus suggests his motive was to keep Javer (um, I mean Fitzgerald) off of the Vice President until after the election. (It is of course nuts that Fitzgerald could say what he said at trial about outing a CIA "agent" without ever charging the guy who outed him; kudos on "oak-necked," BTW.) Care to offer your thoughts on Libby himself now that the trial's done?
Do you think Hillary really has a chance in hell to win the Prez spot? Dems I spoke with cringe in at the mention of her. They hope she'll run as a third term for Bill.
Hi, Jonah--I wanted to know which candidate (either party) you see as most likely to advocate a different approach to Iran--sanctions, bombing, etc all have serious problems, and aren't likely to touch off the kind of societal transformation that Iran needs in order to really join the globalized world...
big oil hq:
Middling fan here. I'm just curious which presidential candidate (Republican or Democrat) will line Big Oil's pockets the most? S/he has my support.
Jonah - I'm curious as to why clinton comparison is not valid in your mind. Do you think that case should have been brought?
There are reader comments at the Corner...emails posted by the contributors
Hello? Is this thing on?
One thing abot the entire Plame affair that bothers me is a mid-level official playing politics, when she has been elected by nobody. What are your thoughts on the limits that government employees should have on using political means to influence policy? What if the military acted like the State Dept and CIA?
Sundarc There is bashing and there is actual crashing . Muslims displayed the difference
Who do think is the current "moon bat" in the house of reps now that Cynthia McKinney is gone?
Goheels, nowhere does the 9/11 commission confirm Niger uranium- Iraq connection. Those 16 words were a lie.
Jonah, if you don't mind, can you tell us anything about when to expect your book on fascism?
I have the same question as Benny Ace--what SPECIFICALLY did the Wilsons lie about?
Given that NRO and WSJ editorial pages have called for an immediate pardon, where do you stand- if this conviction and trial were all unjustified then shouldn't President Bush pardon him now and let the issue die instead of giving the Democrats time to make this an issue in the 2008 election?
That's in the same scene -- part of the taunting!
The real victims, Mr. Goldberg, are Ms. Plame's relationships and connections she's built over the years.
Why shouldn't Wilson feel happy? He's been vindicated, after extreme stress
jpeterson is totally wrong: Capt Kirk's finest moment is in the parallel universe when he is beeming back to his universe and states to the evil Spock: "In every revolution, there is a man with a vision
Why should we be spending money putting Libby in jail while a thousand inner city murders are unsolved?!
When can we expect another gargoyle documentary? Gargolyes rock!
The Justice Department has implemented new guidelines for pardons: five years after sentencing and the defendant must show remorse. This was requested by the Bush Administration about five years ago. What is your feeling about a Libby pardon and will it take 5 years?
How would you handle it if someone attacked the Bush twins for their behavior, which has been allleged to not always be in the best of taste.
Bill the Warthog:
acx -I'm sure you were quite concerned about the convicted felons from the Clinton administration and President Clinton's perjury.
I'm not sure I understand the support for Rudy Giuliani by some conservatives. He holds to numerous far left social positions, and would likely split the party if nominated. He's a hawk, so are all the other candidates. Support for Rudy seems to me to be the right's version of Obamania - based on emotion rather than reason. What do you make of this?
Would it have been better for Libby to have lied about having sex with an intern, rather than having lied about conversations with an overweight (and overrated) television commentator?
Jonah, What do the rank and file of the press think about the Libby case. I can't believe they arent shaking in their shoes.
Hahaha--the wingnuts really up the fun factor
Mr. Goldberg: That was a nice dose of strychnine sarcasm with your fabrications this morning. It's well established by now that Joe Wilson did NOT, in fact, tell the CIA anything that bolstered its case against Iraq, but you conservatives have been flogging that discredited Senate committee report for three years now. Also, you may be upset that the Wilsons are celebrities now, and acting every bit like the celebs they are, but after all's said and done, isn't it true that if your boys in the White House hadn't outed Valerie the Wilson's wouldn't have anything like this celebrity today?
how are things with the book coming along?
help...I'm lost in here and I can't see...its dark
I like the newspaper better, at least there is something to read there.
I thought Libby made pumpkin pie filling.
Still no posts.....
Hey Jonah, greetings from DoD!
What would Robert Scheer say?
Hi Jonah, thanks for chatting. Is Al Gore's global warming rhetoric and apparent hypocrisy another example of liberal guilt?
The case that made this clear was your post-election LA Times column in which you note that "the Iraq war is unpopular; that's because it's not going swimmingly." You follow that with a tongue-in-cheek reference to the "brief unpleasantness" of Mrs. Lincoln and "slanderous codswallop" about the tragic flooding of New Orleans. No matter your rhetorical intention to speak cleverly, Jonah Goldberg, you revealed in that short space of print a monumental insensitivity to genuine human suffering.
Why don't you have your own tv show- MSNBC appears willing to give them to anyone (not that you don't deserve one)
Are you aware of the difference between an editorial and a fact?
To what do you attribute your near-constant misanthropy and arrogance? I can only assume it was something pre-fetal or a distortion of early maternal nurture. How do you explain it?
No matter how nasty swing voters, good-government types, and other observers find things these days, I see considerable frustration in both the Left and Right blogospheres about their favored politicians not having the stomach for a real fight, not being harder on the enemy, not being a real committed member of their side. (On the Right, I call this the "reverse Goldwater" phenomenon: in their hearts, they know they're wrong...so they try cleansing themselves of the icky conservativeness by co-authoring bills with Ted Kennedy and other paragons of virtue).
Moderator....what percent of comments/questions are getting thru