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The conversation: Three views on immigration policy


Immigration enforcement plan Secure Communities should be shelved or retooled

The Obama administration is right to enforce immigration laws, and smart to focus on those who pose the greatest danger to communities. With an estimated 11 million people illegally living and working in the United States, immigration officials can't deport everyone, and would waste precious resources in the effort to do so.

But Secure Communities isn't succeeding at targeting violent criminals. Instead, it is increasingly diverting police from public safety for other purposes. The White House should heed the recommendations of police chiefs who are calling on federal immigration officials to stop trying to turn police into immigration agents.

-- Los Angeles Times editorial

Obama should consider Utah's common-sense, market-based answer to the immigration question

As Reagan himself pointed out: "Are great numbers of our unemployed really victims of the illegal alien invasion, or are those illegal tourists actually doing work our own people won't do? One thing is certain in this hungry world: No regulation or law should be allowed if it results in crops rotting in the fields for lack of harvesters."

In other words, if businesses can’t find U.S. workers for certain jobs, government should not stop them from hiring the foreign workers they need. […]

The Utah immigrant work permit program should serve as a model for Republicans in other states, and even in Congress, about how to address the immigration crisis within a conservative framework of limited government and the free market. The "Utah solution" demonstrates that there are Republicans who want to work on the issue constructively -- and are willing to pass laws welcoming to immigrants.

-- Alfonso Aguilar, Politico

More support for the 'Utah Way'

[T]he "Utah Way," as some are calling it, is also a fraternal attack on Republicans, in Washington and elsewhere, whose only strategy is to demonize, criminalize and deport 11 million illegal immigrants. […]

Utah's guest-worker bill doesn't grant citizenship, of course, but in every other way it's exactly what national Republicans have derided as "amnesty." It would grant work permits to undocumented immigrants, and their immediate families, who pay a fine, clear a criminal background check and study English.

The bill's chief sponsor, state Rep. Bill Wright, is a plain-spoken dairy farmer who describes his politics as "extremely" conservative, likes Sarah Palin and believes he may have once voted for a Democrat - possibly 40 years ago for sheriff. He admires the work ethic of the Hispanic farmhands he's employed over the years and doesn't care much for anything the government does, least of all the idea that it might deport millions of immigrant workers and their families.

-- Lee Hockstader, The Washington Post

Stop illegal immigration: America’s not a "free-for-all"

[Ron Paul] is tough on illegal immigration. He wrote on his Web site that "decades of misguided policies" have left America "a free-for-all." He has a six-point plan to stop illegal immigration:

1-Physically secure the borders and coastline
2-Enforce visa rules
3-No Amnesty
4-No welfare for illegal aliens
5-End birthright citizenship
6-Pass true immigration reform

-- Mark Berman, Opposing Views


Working on immigration

An immigration reform window opens

In immigration reform, arguing against workplace raids

--Alexandra Le Tellier

Photo: Protesters rally for Immigrant rights on the south steps of the Utah state Capitol in Salt Lake City on Monday, Jan. 24. Credit: Scott Sommerdorf / The Salt Lake Tribune


Comments () | Archives (37)

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Mitchell Young

There's a surprise, a boss wants cheap labor. I wonder if Bill Wright pays the costs of educating his "workers" children, or the extra police and fire protection that is necessary when populations increase, or the infrastructure for roads and schools etc that are necessary for that increased population.

People are not machine tools that can be imported and then exported; they impose all sorts of costs on the receiving society, and business people like Bill Wright want socialize those costs onto all of us. If you want cheap labor, Mr. Wright, move to Mexico.

B Rizzo

You probably can't find a job an American citizen won't do as long as he gets paid a reasonable wage.

Since a lot of American businessmen think 'illegals' don't deserve a resonable, fair wage, they don't have a problem treating these people as second class humans.

And, since a lot of Amercans are a greedy, selfish lot, they don't mind when a neighbor or fellow Amercan loses their job to an illegal, as long as they get a lower price on whatever good or service their buying.


A lot of feelings stir-up when one brings the immigration issue to the table. Many believe that immigrants take jobs that were meant for Americans and pose a great threat to the welfare of Americans, while others, like the Utah solution supporters, believe they are only taking jobs that no Americans are interested in upholding and are only in the United States to have a better life.
First of all, it would take too much money to deport all of the immigrants in the United States; and it’s time we all realize that no matter what anyone does, these people are and will continue to enter the United States. Personally, I believe that the Utah solution is the way to go. By providing work permits to undocumented immigrants and their immediate families, having them pay a fine, making a criminal background check and in turn have them study English would be the perfect approach to not only the hard working immigrants who are here with good intentions but would help in weeding out the criminal immigrants that have been causing the whole problem.
The whole issue has gotten out of proportion and it has gone from a public concern to just a way of supporting racial comments and actions against immigrant workers. This all needs to stop and everyone needs to remember how they all came to live in the United States.


A zero-tolerance enforcement covers two issues over illegal immigration reduction. This is E-Verify, an operation of the (SSA) Social Security Administration combined with the (ICE) Immigration and Custom Service. A few years back Senator Harry Reid of Nevada Blitzed the E-Verify electronic program, by enacted it only on a voluntary basis. With today’s major problems E-Verify which is being revised continuously, needing to be mandated for every company in the United States, with no exceptions? The highest enforcement possibility must begin in the workplace, giving honest business owners a sense of security if they get audited. As the US government has given no priority to E-Verify, so three States so far have taken the E-Verify verification and made it compulsory for their own people. Americans should approach their federal and State representative, informing them they want E-Verify mandated, to identify new and previously hired illegal workers.

That integrating Nationwide Drivers licenses Picture ID would reveal illegal workers using false identification documents. This type of enforcement is the strongest avenue to strangle any chance of foreigners taking Citizen and rightful residents jobs. In this time of the deepest recessions America has ever faced, everything must be done to begin Attrition through enforcement. For many decades illegal immigrants have been attracted to jobs in the US, by reckless employers and this must stop. By taking away business licenses, along with hefty fines, asset confiscation and ultimately prison for those who disobey the laws. This country has serious concerns with its highest debt ratio in US history and businesses, politicians are still financially favorable to anybody who slips past our national fence, or stays on after their tourist visa expires.

Perpetually we need the most exceptionally skilled legal immigrants, and perhaps in the future a well uniform type of Guest worker program introduced without the mass fraud with have today. Through business improprieties of hiring illegal immigrants, has the effect of roughly 60 billion dollars leaving America to foreign banks annually. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy through amongst other things, "Ninja" loans of banks under threat of through their own desires gaving mortgages to (No Income, No Job or Assets) low income people, with possible millions of illegal aliens taking advantage of it. This was proportionately to blame for the real estate crash and this massive foreclosure crunch. Find the facts of this on your favorite browser, as it is unlikely to be available in the leftist news media.

Illegal immigration has possible consequences, we cannot sustain anymore. This nation with its own hurting people, its own poverty must come first with aid. Any new amnesty would devastate the working poor, the lower middle class. All of us should demand permanent E-Verify, to remove unauthorized workers. Use your blue-pages to find those politicians that supposedly represent you, and tell them, "Enough is enough!" You can also vent your frustration on NumbersUSA, a pro-sovereignty organization that is fighting for your rights, instead of pandering to foreign nationals. Learn more about E-Verify at NumbersUSA that has questions and answers for you and a free faxing program to contact Washington.


I am from Utah. Perhaps the LA Times would care to indicate which Utah 'Common Sense' program they are speaking of. There are two guest worker programs and neither is signed into law and unlikely to be so.

The first follows the federal agriculture program and is only unconstitutional in that it enters into a treaty with the state of Nueva Leon, Mexico. Foreign treaties are the sole province of the United States Government (Art 1, Section 10 US Const.)

The second proposed 'Common Sense' solution seeks to exploit foreign workers, is unconstitutional on a number of fronts, and seeks to nullify federal law.

The two bills are HB 116 and HB 466. You can Google "Utah State legislature" and go to the official page.

Utah also introduced and passed a watered down Arizona type of legislation, HB 497.

Nice how the press runs away with what they want with no consideration for the truth of the matter.

Pasquino Marforio

Ron Paul got it right.

ann nevile

if u want cheap workers with no loyalty to this country then Utah is the way to go If you believe in the rule of law with American citizens protected then Utah should be voted out of the United States. They need an executive exemption for their vote. Illegal immigrants should have been deported as soon as they were discovered. 85% of arrested drivers in my suburb of Illinois had NO LICENSE, NO INSURANCE AND WERE DRIVING DUI.


S.O.S. Save our State, it's time to deport not support the illegal’s. Any illegal arrested because of a non violent crime needs to be booked then deported. No questions asked. Three strike law?
1. Broke into our country
2. Stole I.D. for benefits
3. It's any buddies guess........

It's time to return our state to a self supporting, productive society. Not illegal’s standing on corners taking jobs from legal citizens. Not their children that don't speak English taking down our school systems. Not the teenagers of illegal’s that turn to gangs. Let's give this state a shake down. Support the legal citizens, deport the rest.

P.S. outlaw the UNIONS
One voice can save our country, let it be yours.


As a victim of a crime by an illegal immigrant I take a dim view of how easy they have it. Stolen identity, assistance, health care. Excuse me.....I pay $780 a month for health care. Watch the news, our homegrown terrorists are here - they're called illegal immigrants. Deport them now, let them show us some respect. They can return legally perhaps they'll have more pride in our country. I speak spanish, why do so many latinos refusse to speak english? I think they simply want to take over our country so it's just like thiers. What a thought.


I wish you all the luck but I'm afraid the deck is stacked against law, order, and freedom.

When I started looking into where the money was coming from to buy off the politicians and subvert the immigration laws of the world, I came across what may be the root of many of our problems. Fiat Money.
No matter how much real money people can put together to build their countries the way they want there are those that can print up what ever it takes to get their way.
Maybe this will help make the danger of fiat money clear.
Imagine you and me are setting across from each other. We create enough money to represent all of the world's wealth. Each one of us has one SUPER Dollar in front of him.
You own half of everything and so do I.
I'm the government though. I get bribed into creating a Central Bank.
You're not doing what I want you to be doing so I print up myself eight more SUPER Dollars to manipulate you with.
All of a sudden your SUPER Dollar only represents one tenth of the wealth of the world!
That isn't the only thing though. You need to get busy and get to work because YOU'VE BEEN STIFFED with the bill for the money I PRINTED UP to get YOU TO DO what I WANTED.
That to me represents what has been happening to the economy, and us, and why so many of our occupations just can't keep up with the fake money presses.

We are going to have to regain control of our government before we can regain control of our currency. We are going to have to regain control of our currency before we can regain control of our country.

ann nevile

THIS country is the goal of every one living today. We have a buyers market. So why are we letting Latinos with a 7th grade education invade this c0untry. Surely we can do better than this unless all politicans are on the take from the lobbies. Is our goverment for sale? If this is the best government for sale the American people were sold down the river and most politicians will not be happy in 2012.

ann nevile



Oh this is an esay one. End the welfare state, get rid of Social Security and all the other freebe social programs. End the free handouts and the illegals will go home. Instead we propose Real ID and the control of all of us to stop the problem of "illegals". Just like the failed drug war, nothing but an attack on the 2nd amendment and control over banking laws. All these problems are created by the Federal Gov't to take away liberites and freedom! Every controller thinks he can fix the broken wheel. When are you dummies going to wake up and vote Libertarian?


Every nation has immigration laws. The US has the most generous immigration laws in the world. Immigration laws are to protect the economy and citizens of the host nation. Immigrants must have a job or sponsor, pay fees, pass a health and background screening, and wait to be accepted. Illegal aliens are NOT immigrants. They go thru none of these requirements. They take whatever they can, regardless of the negative impact to this country or our people. Americans must demand a ZERO tolerance towards ALL illegal immigration and end it forever.


shelved? retooled? how about implemented???
When did we lose our common sense? Our Government, has allowed the invasion of 30 million criminals in direct violation of Article IV, Section IV of our Constitution. they force American tax payers to pay Billions to provide Welfare, Prison cells, Educate the invaders children, free medical care,massive document fraud, & are destroying our schools, hospitals, communities, culture while Robbing, Raping, Killing & Assaulting American Citizens WAKE UP PEOPLE!
Every Non-representative including obama and holder should be IMPEACHED! for not upholding the oath of office they swore to defend the Constitution! If these clowns were to do their job, this would all be a Moot point!
Anchors and their criminal parents go, period, and cut the phony tears, you knew you were breaking the law when you crossed the border.

Next shut down any business hiring illegal labor and confiscate all property belonging to the owner. Property will be sold at auction and the proceeds to pay for the massive deportation. Oh and owners go to jail.
Got a better idea? Lets hear it!


Read this whos to blame for our economy, its NOT the POOR MIGRANTS.


Before you Scream and show Ignorance and Hate at least read the Immigration Law regarding Undocumented Immigrants.


Q: “Is it true that illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes and drain our economy?”
A: As Ben Franklin said, “Nothing is certain but death and taxes.” Like the rest of us, unauthorized immigrants pay taxes on their property and anything they buy. More than half of them have taxes taken out of their paychecks, but because our immigration system is dysfunctional, these taxes are paid under false Social Security numbers. We need a new regimen in which we know who is paying taxes and can ensure that no one is getting a free ride. The only way to do that is to pull unauthorized immigrants out of the shadows and get them on the right side of the law.
Three state-level studies have found that unauthorized immigrants pay more in taxes than they use in benefits. In Iowa, unauthorized immigrants pay an estimated $40 to $62 million in state taxes, while they and their employers contribute an additional $50 million to $77.8 million in federal, Social Security, and Medicare taxes from which they will never benefit. In Oregon, unauthorized immigrants—who are not eligible for any state benefits—pay between $134 million and $187 million in taxes each year. Finally, in Texas, the State Comptroller found that, without unauthorized residents, the gross state product in 2005 would have been $17.7 billion less.

The economics of immigration, Stephen C. Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration and someone who enjoys bipartisan support for his straightforwardness, said that by 2007, the Social Security trust fund had received a net benefit of somewhere between $120 billion and $240 billion from unauthorized immigrants.

That represented an astounding 5.4 percent to 10.7 percent of the trust fund's total assets of $2.24 trillion that year. The cumulative contribution is surely higher now. Unauthorized immigrants paid a net contribution of $12 billion in 2007 alone, Goss said.

Previous estimates circulating publicly and in Congress had placed the annual contributions at roughly half of Goss's 2007 figure and listed the cumulative benefit on the order of $50 billion.

The Social Security trust fund faces a solvency crisis that would be even more pressing were it not for these payments.

Adding to the Social Security irony is that the restrictionists are mostly OLDER AND RETIRED WHITES from longtime American families. The very people, in other words, who benefit most from the Social Security payments by unauthorized immigrants.

Comprehensive Immigration Reform Would Boost the Economy & Help ALL American Workers: As opposed to the mass deportation, enforcement-only approach, addressing and fixing the immigration system in a wholesale manner will be a boon to the U.S. economy and all U.S. workers. That is why both the AFL-CIO and Change to Win created The Labor Movement’s Joint Framework for Comprehensive Immigration Reform. Dr. Raúl Hinojosa-Ojeda conducted a 2010 report for the Center for American Progress and the Immigration Policy Center that found that “Unlike the current enforcement-only strategy, comprehensive reform would raise the ‘wage floor’ for the entire U.S. economy—to the benefit of both immigrant and native-born workers.” According to the study, granting legal status to undocumented immigrants and creating flexible legal limits on future immigration flows would generate enough consumer-spending to support 750,000-900,000 jobs. The report also found that the mass deportation approach would reduce GDP by 1.46 percent annually, amounting to a loss of $2.6 trillion over 10 years.


The Undocumented Immigrants pay the exact same amount of taxes like you and me when they buy Things, rent a house, fill up gas, drink a beer or wine, buy appliances, play the states lottery and mega millions . Below are the links to just a few sites that will show you exactly how much tax you or the Undocumented Immigrant pays , so you see they are NOT FREELOADERS, THEY PAY TAXES AND TOLLS Exactly the same as you, Now if you take out 10% from your states /city Budget what will your city/state look like financially ?

Stop your folly thinking , you are wise USE YOUR WISDOM to see the reality. They pay more taxes than you think, Including FEDERAL INCOME TAX using a ITN Number that is given to them by the IRS, Social Security Taxes and State taxes that are withheld form their paychecks automatically.

Taxes, paid by You & the Undocumented are the same in each state check your state : http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/sales.html

GAS Taxes paid by you & the Undocumented are the same. Go to and check out your states tax; http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp

Cigarette Taxes paid by you & the Undocumented are the same, check this out in : http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/cigarett.html

Clothing Sales Taxes, are the same paid by you & the Undocumented Immigrant; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States

City Taxes, are the same paid by you or the Undocumented, since he pays rent and the LANDLORD pays the city : http://www.town-usa.com/statetax/statetaxlist.html

Beer Taxes, are the same paid by you or the Undocumented: http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/beer.html

TAX DATA : http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/245.html

Eight million Undocumented immigrants pay Social Security, Medicare and income taxes. Denying public services to people who pay their taxes is an affront to America’s bedrock belief in fairness. But many “pull-up-the-drawbridge” politicians want to do just that when it comes to Undocumented immigrants.

The fact that Undocumented immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two thirds of Undocumented immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes.

Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation’s hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don’t pay for.

In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified Undocumented immigrants from nearly all means tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization.

The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education. Nevertheless, Tancredo and his ilk pushed a bill through the House criminalizing all aid to illegal aliens — even private acts of charity by priests, nurses and social workers.

Potentially, any soup kitchen that offers so much as a free lunch to an illegal could face up to five years in prison and seizure of assets. The Senate bill that recently collapsed would have tempered these draconian measures against private aid.

But no one — Democrat or Republican — seems to oppose the idea of withholding public services. Earlier this year, Congress passed a law that requires everyone who gets Medicaid — the government-funded health care program for the poor — to offer proof of U.S. citizenship so we can avoid “theft of these benefits by illegal aliens,” as Rep. Charlie Norwood, R-Ga., puts it. But, immigrants aren’t flocking to the United States to mooch off the government.

According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don’t have Social Security numbers to file taxes.

One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS’ scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers.

No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status — a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows. What’s more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks.

Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they’ll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus.

The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year. Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children.

The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families — most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume. Yes, many illegal migrants impose a strain on border communities on whose doorstep they first arrive, broke and unemployed.

To solve this problem equitably, these communities ought to receive the surplus taxes that federal government collects from immigrants. But the real reason border communities are strained is the lack of a guest worker program.

Such a program would match willing workers with willing employers in advance so that they wouldn’t be stuck for long periods where they disembark while searching for jobs. The cost of undocumented aliens is an issue that immigrant bashers have created to whip up indignation against people they don’t want here in the first place.

With the Senate having just returned from yet another vacation and promising to revisit the stalled immigration bill, politicians ought to set the record straight: Illegals are not milking the government. If anything, it is the other way around.


Read this link, Whos to blame for our economy, its NOT the poor migrnat. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/market-crash-2011-it-will-hit-by-christmas-2011-02-22






It’s all about economics! Removing undocumented workers from the U.S. would total a loss of $1.8 trillion in annual spending and $651.5 billion in annual economic output, according to a study by the economic analysis firm The Perryman Group. It would cost about $28 billion per year to apprehend illegal immigrants, $6 billion a year to detain them, $500 million for extra beds, $2 million to judicially process them and $1.6 billion to transport them home. $230 Billion is the estimated amount it would cost over the next five years to enact the scenario of the mass-deportation caucus and deport the undocumented population, according to a report by the Center for American Progress. Legalization of undocumented immigrants would significantly expand the economy—by a cumulative $1.5 trillion in gross domestic product over 10 years. A deportation approach, by contrast, would have the cumulative effect of draining $2.5 trillion over 10 years from the U.S. economy. Illegal immigrants are paying their share of taxes, they pay teh same taxes as you and me when they purchase anything, They dont carry a card that says Undocumenetd Immigrnat, Dont charge taxes.
Start looking at FACTS & NUMBERS. Not the HATE GROUPS LIES.

This week, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) came out with a report entitled, The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers, which discusses the costs of unauthorized immigration to the United States. As usual, FAIR has put out a highly misleading fiscal snapshot of the costs allegedly imposed on U.S. taxpayers by unauthorized immigrants and completely discounts the economic contributions of unauthorized workers and consumers. Moreover, FAIR inflates their costs in a variety of ways and conveniently ignores any contributions that would offset these costs.

While the publication is long and deals with a wide range of issues that warrant more dissection by credible economic experts, the trade publication Education Week has already begun the deconstruction with an item that sheds light on their misleading claims about providing English language services in schools.

Another argument FAIR makes, which makes it hard to glean what their solution would be is the high cost of deporting undocumented workers which FAIR blames on the immigrants themselves. It's a somewhat circular argument to say that the cost of undocumented immigrants includes the cost of failing law enforcement efforts. So, in essence, FAIR is saying that the deport-them-all approach costs too much money and doesn't work. Yet their "solution" is to spend even more money on enforcement.

FAIR's data is meant only to reinforce their vision of "attrition through enforcement." It is not rooted in an effort to move the immigration debate forward. Therefore, passing comprehensive immigration reform - which would yield a cumulative $1.5 trillion in added U.S. gross domestic product over 10 years - is the only sound economic decision the United States can make.

SOURCE Immigration Policy Center

Who’s behind these laws?

The Immigration Reform Law Institute, or IRLI, the legal arm of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, or FAIR, drafted the Arizona law and most of the copycat bills. The Southern Poverty Law Center designated FAIR a hate group because of its founder’s writings, its repeated participation with white nationalist groups, and its receipt of major funding from a racist organization.

Copycat laws frequently rely on the work of attorney Kris Kobach, who works for IRLI. Kobach’s lawyering has cost localities who have hired him millions of dollars while the laws have been found unconstitutional.


Stupid conservative want to cut government but the damn idiots think with billions in cuts our government, government will be able to deport 12,000,000 undocumented people. Where are these fools brains: firmly lodged up in the deep dark recesses beyond their anal orifices?

Local, sate and cities are cutting police. The conservatives cuts will cut 3200 police.

Would one of you village idiots step up and tell us what things you want police to stop doing so they can round up 12,000,000 people?

You idiots think police are magical and they can do a dozen thing at once when you can't chew gum and walk.

Where will we put these 12,00,000 people while we process them? First we must track down 12,000,00 in 50 states and transport them to these detention centers that will have to be guarded by someone.

Have you noticed these whiners can sure point out problem but they never give a workable solution. They don't want to solve anything, they want an issue to cry about.

After we capture, apprehend, transport, detain and guard 12,000,000 people how do we feed them. Where do they take a crap and wash-up? Who supplies the medical, coffins and graves?

Can you village idiots think!

Mike Cappy

On the first point enforcement should not be shelved but increased because it was and is still the lack of enforcement that has created the problem and it is enforcement that is the way to solve the problem. When police see traffic moving dangerously fast they start enforcing the speed limit and miraculously the traffic slows.

On the second point President Regan was wrong because it is not that Americans will not do those jobs but Americans can not afford to do those jobs for the pay offered. The unfettered flow of illegal aliens has depressed the working wage and will continue to be depressed if business is allowed to continue its illegal practice because business will not do the right thing when it comes to their bottom line.

On the third point if it is the law of the land then those that break the law should be criminalize because without enforcement there is no law. In the 1960 President Eisenhower deported 11 million illegal aliens it can be done and is the most practical way to restore the rule of law. There would be a net gain for every illegal alien deported because the unfettered flow is a drains and affects all levels of our society in resources and public services.

Lastly Ron Paul’s plan is the most realistic approach to the problem because as we have seen when the law is even slightly enforced illegal aliens will leave the area and go some place where the law is not enforced..


Please quit telling us that we are the captive of the sheer numbers of those who ignore our laws. OK, it is absurd to go to the trouble and expense of deporting 11 million (someone should find the notes from the 50's when they did it with less personnel, money and technology), but they could be denied our jobs and public resources so they won't come here to begin with and will go away under their own steam. Of course, now they will go to Utah under their own steam.


People need to stop being so IGNORANT! This country will always have illegal immigrants. I think it's time we came to an agreement to help them stay in this country legally. The borders will never stop them for the simple fact that they contribute a lot of money to the US economy. They as well as every other American pay taxes but they do not receive a refund. Why complain that they are 'invading' our states if YOU won't go out there and do the work they're doing day and night. This is their country as well as ours! This country is filled with immigrants since the beginning! You can't say they don't belong here because yet again you probably don't either. Just look at all the money Arizona lost during the small period they established that law that gave police officers the right to ask for legal documents. If you think our country is facing a recession now just wait and see what would happen if all of the 'immigrants' were to be deported. This is a FREE COUNTRY! They have as much rights to be here as do any of us. If anything the government should regulate the welfare system seeing how the ones that abuse government programs are born citizens, majority 'white' citizens.

Joel Wischkaemper

As a nation, we are being pounded by the big money people, the folks who support the illegal aliens who also have a LOT of money, the Mexican Government, the Catholic Church and the illegal aliens themselves. And the contest is simple.... can they threaten the politicians enough that they will spend our money in spite of what the American People want? I hope not, but the big money people have a whole lot to lose (and it is our money) if they don't win. Given a President that supported the people, and this would not be happening.

Obama says the system is broken. He does not tell us how it is broken, and he won't fix the part that is broken, ..... he wants the whole bill re-written. I hope not.

The solution to this problem is NOT to bring all of the Mexican Citizens up here to fix their problem. The solution is to go to Mexico and fix their problem there! NOT bring them here and fix their problem there. With the number 12 economy in the world, and zero defense needs.. that is dooable. We will just send all those dolts in the picture down and keep them there until they get it right.

Joel Wischkaemper

One other point... I have looked at about half of 'Facts' links, and discover many of them did not work. It would be nice if someone could check his 'facts' before he is allowed to provide massively bogus information.

Mitchell Young


1) You complain about FAIR being misleading, then go on to report 'facts' from organizations which are fronts for the immigration lawyers.

2) You highlight quotes about GDP , which is a terrible measure of quality of life. If we took in all 150 million or so people in Bangladesh, and had them do exactly the same thing they were doing there, our *total* GDP would go up, but obviously per capita GDP and quality of life would go down. So yes, removing 11 million people would cause GDP to go down -- a 'loss' to the economy. But per capita GDP would likely go up.

3) Even per capita GDP is a bad measure of quality of life. Society has to pay for extra teachers and cops and firemen and traffic engineers etc. made necessary by increasing immigration--all that gets counted as 'GDP' but in terms of quality of life for the immigrant-receivin it is essentially extra cost and effort expended just to remain in place.

4) All of the wrangling of the economic impact of immigration can be summed up in four words -- 'domestic outmigration from California'. California is a beautiful place with great whether. Up until the 1980s it experienced large scale migration from other states. Yet that started to turn around in the 90s, and definitively by 1990. In 18 of the last twenty years, more Americans have left California than have arrived, and over those two decades, the number leaving versus those entering is over a million. Why? Well, California is also the state most impacted by immigration -- legal and illegal. Add to that the turnaround started just above the time of the 1986 amnesty and the vastly increased *legal* immigration of the 1990s, the answer is clear. Immigrants are not benefiting Americans, but rather pushing them out of what was formerly the 'Golden State'. Add to that the fiscal situation of the state (California has about 25% of the illegal population, versus 11% of the overall population), and it is just ridiculous to claim that illegal immigration (or even legal mass immigration) 'helps the economy'.

5) The smears of John Tanton are just that, smears. Tanton has donated all of his papers and correspondence to the U of Michigan -- does that sound like a man with something to hide. The SPLC (itself a dodgy outfit--look for 'The Church of Morris Dees') has gone through the papers. Their smoking gun? He once told a joke to related to the relative population growth rates of Latinos vs. Anglos -- something like 'for the first time in history, an ethnic group with its pants down will overtake one with its pants up.?" Whether you think that is funny or not, that is exactly the same sentiment expressed by the National Council of La Raza and even the editorial board of this paper. The only difference is that Tanton's joke is ambiguous about this development, whereas La Raza and the LAT is positively joyous about it.

To sum up, 'Facts', you have to stop gorging on, then regurgitating, propaganda originating from the immigration lawyers (talk about vested interest!), La Raza, the SPLC and the US Chamber of Commerce.


Why should America either not know who is in the country from where or be forced to give citizenship to everyone who wants to come here? This is what unregistered foreigners and their home nations are demanding.
Mexico insists America is "racist" and "xenophobic" because we balk at accepting as many of their people as they wish to send.
They say we "hate brown people" because there is talk of clarifying one of our constitutional Amendments that was never intended to benefit their nation but does.
I Mexican schools, they teach a revisionist version of history that say their nation actually won the war between in 1848-1850 but america somehow managed to "steal" and occupy what is now the American Southwest from them. Ergo everything from New Mexico to California is actually Mexican Territory. (Patently false because America won the war and subsequently paid Mexico for the land.)
What it all basically comes down to is that Latin America and in particular Mexico feels that somehow the US owes it to their citizens to allow them free access to our country and everything in in it.
Just like any other nation in the world America has a right and responsibility to know who is here. And our citizenship is not just a piece of paper to be handed to all who set boot here.
People from other nations who do not follow our rules do not belong here. Coming without permission is ignoring our rules right from the start. Nobody deserves a special dispensation just because they managed to arrive no matter how difficult the journey.


I'm all in favor of a guest worker program as we have now raised two generations of lazy entitled US citizens. Latinos are the ones that will do those jobs that use to be done by American citizens but for some bizarre reason, the last two generations think they are to good to do. The big problem w/a guest worker programs is these workers offspring born here are US citizens and we know how difficult it is to send people home once they have kids here who enjoy the lifestyle and benefits of living in the US.


The LAT continues to be the #1 Propaganda Arm of the La Raza/Open Borders crowd. They are the newspaper of record for illegal aliens and Mexico First over the citizens and sovereignty of the USA.
The insidious overt infiltration and acceptance of unending human waves of illegals overwhelmingly from south of the border has turned the city into a 3rd world balkanized temple of babel and relegated once great Los Angeles to a future of poverty,ignorance, dystopia,bankruptcy and decline.

Kurt Stockmeyer

In a time were cutting education and our health system is in the crapper why do we put the illegals first? Free healthcare, food stamps and giving them a free pass? I have worked hard all my life and am looking at probably not getting social security. I have a definate problem with the situation. Not being able to ask for proof of citizenship is a sobering problem. I agree the federal government should be taking care of the situation instead of local law enforcement. So we need to take care of the situation ourselves? No, the government needs to make these people contributors instead of leaches. Not to mention the thousands in our jails and killing our neighbors. You could argure the white, black, brown or any American citizens do bad crimes, it does not give the illegal a free pass to do it or dismiss the issue. Bottom line is the government needs to handle this situation as they are there to protect the citizens of the United States of America!


I'm with Ron Paul on this one.Arrest,Detain,Deport.Repeat.Arrest,Detain, Deport.Repeat.Arrest,Detain,Deport.Repeat.Arrest,Detain,Deport.Repeat


Again--those States that ignore public opinion and the billions of dollars extracted from public service and welfare programs to sustain illegal immigrants will initiate consequences of refugees arriving there from Arizona and other self-restriction States. If Oklahoma, Utah legislators give way to indulgent provisions, playing into the greedy hands of industry and other open border seeders. They too will be submerged by mass populations of illegal cheap labor, mainly from low income labor. These people are ready and willing to steal American jobs as they have been doing for three decades. Unsettled by new policing laws throughout the country, unknown numbers of foreigners will head in all directions looking for a better home. States that pander to illegal immigrants such as California, Nevada will get their fair share of paperless people, as they spread across the Southwest. No State is immune if the State lawmakers decide to tamper down rigid laws.

Every State needs to be unswerving towards mandating E-Verify, 287 (G) and Secure Communities police programs. If you are here illegal and get caught, which you eventually will in some scenario you will be deported, with zero tolerance. Amnesty is out of the question with the majority of Americans and the growing membership of the Tea Party steadfast in their resolve. We have already had six hidden amnesties since Ronald Reagan's unenforced 1986 immigration law and we pro-sovereignty groups are suspiciously watching for these irregularities. NumbersUSA does not disguise the facts from the Leftist editorial, but offers disquieting statistics and what is really being done to stem the ever increasing tide of illegal immigrants? The US Government does not always tell The People the full truth, so those interested in the corruption and details emanating from Congress and State Capitols on the illegal immigration issue should investigate the website of Judicial Watch.


Follow and enforce the law. It's not rocket science.


the Social Security trust fund had received a net benefit of somewhere between $120 billion and $240 billion from unauthorized immigrants.

Baloney "Facts". If an illegal didn't do the job and pay into Social Security (using a stolen ID - that would be identity theft by the way), then an American citizen would have the job and pay the SS taxes. Your number just shows the BILLIONS in income that illegals steal from American citizens. Do ag workers/produce pickers pay into SS? i don't think they do. The illegals taking jobs in construction, food service, retail, landscaping, hotels, etc... are stealing jobs Americans should have - so their dubious contribution to the SS fund would have been 'paid' by the citizen holding that job.

Including FEDERAL INCOME TAX using a ITN Number that is given to them by the IRS, Social Security Taxes and State taxes that are withheld form their paychecks automatically.

WRONG "Facts". They then file a tax return, claim 8 dependents (often true, but could be made up, who checks?), and end up with a TAX REFUND because they are poor.

the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified Undocumented immigrants from nearly all means tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization.

yes "Facts", which is why they crap out kids as fast as they can, and have huge families -- because their 'citizen' children allow them to get: Food Stamps, Welfare, section 8 housing, free education for their kids, etc.... They use their children as a '2nd' paycheck (or 6th paycheck, 8th paycheck, you get the picture). making babies = making money -- and they know it. Note that your LA times did a story about the $52 MILLION in welfare and food stamp benefits paid to illegal immigrants through their citizen children -- in LA county, in one month (July 2010). That's $600 million a YEAR in ONE county - paying Mexicans to breed kids they can't afford on their own.


Illegals have full services in the Nations they came from. The lack of services they encounter is the same for any foreign traveler in any country. Just go to Arabia and need services or go to Mexico and ask for food stamps and hospital care. The United States does need some intelligent immigrants but it is not the Citizens job to make the immigrants smart. 100 years ago when immigrants landed on these shores the children were taught in English. The students then went home and taught the family English, only grandmother did not learn the language. Today we teach the illegal children in the home language, they go home and no one learns English. Keeping the students in a second class status as ESL maintains the low wage earner for another generation or two.

Jim B

California can not keep going the way it is. It is not up to us taxpayers to for education, food, housing and medical care for illegal aliens.

The days of being a rich generous state are gone, we are broke.
We need to stop electing officials that put the welfare of illegal aliens above the welfare of our strapped taxpayers. Businesses are leaving the state and we will be left with more takers than givers. What do we do then??


Too much of the debate on immigration is driven by myth and no effort is being made by the media to clear things up. It is this lack of factual information that allows politicians like Sen. Rand Paul to so completely misstate the problem that he fails to suggest any solution that really solves the problem. For example:

1. There is no "front door" for "these people" to come through. The average wait for a Mexican worker to enter the U.S. on a work visa is 19 years. Yes, you read right, 19 years. What makes matters worse is the type of the work we need migrant workers to do have -NO- visa provisions in law. Seasonal workers can get one-year H2A visas. Hotel workers, landscapers, meat processing plant workers, etc. cannot get a work visa because one for their type of work simply does not exist anywhere in law. There is no "front door" for these workers. At all.

2. H2 visas are non-immigrant visas, meaning the holder cannot apply for citizenship. The only way a H2 visa worker can apply for a green card visa is for their employer to sponsor them. But for that to work, the employee has to be out of the country. If they're in the country, they can't be sponsored. See the problem?

3. Utah's attempt, while not perfect, at least recognizes correctly where the problem is and makes an attempt to solve it. Let's all hope it catches on and shows Congress there is a way to address that demand and get "these people" above ground where they can contribute as so many conservatives are demanding they contribute (which they already do anyway).

4. Thanks to the federal Adverse Effect Wage Rate, H2-visa affected workers make, on average $2-3/hour MORE than minimum wage, so the argument that businesses "only want cheap labor" is a red herring because they do pay more. Here in Arizona, roofing contractors are paying $15/hour and still can't get employees. Do some employers game the system and cheat? Certainly. But remember, consumers also want lower food and home prices and inexpensive and clean hotel rooms. You won't get any of those without immigrant labor.

Enforcement-only won't work and hasn't worked. It's time for alternatives and it's time for comprehensive reform. AZEIR has a plan for solving the immigration problem and can be found at http://www.azeir.org. By creating visas for the types of workers we actually need and making the numbers available annual and market-based, employers can get the workers they need and many of the problems people are so upset about will go away.


I counted 4 views: 3 from the establishment that is responsible for illegal immigrants and another one that somehow excluded employment eligibility from his "plan" to stop illegal immigration. The lines around illegal immigration have never been simply between the parties or conservative versus liberal. In fact you see unholy coalitions of people who don't share hardly anything on their agendas except the sanction and promotion of illegal immigration.

What you don't see in this newspaper is representation of those who have principled opposition to illegal immigration and can articulate coherently on the subject. That's no accident, but it's wrong. Do the people at the LA Times have no shame?

ann meyers

What? Who wrote the headline? I read three views on various forms of amnesty for illegal immigrants. And a fourth excerpt outlining a single politician's ideas who happens to be opposed to amnesty.



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The Opinion L.A. blog is the work of Los Angeles Times Editorial Board membersNicholas Goldberg, Robert Greene, Carla Hall, Jon Healey, Sandra Hernandez, Karin Klein, Michael McGough, Jim Newton and Dan Turner. Columnists Patt Morrison and Doyle McManus also write for the blog, as do Letters editor Paul Thornton, copy chief Paul Whitefield and senior web producer Alexandra Le Tellier.

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