Obama might 'bankrupt' coal, but so would McCain
We get a lot of press releases here at the Opinion Manufacturing Division that pass without comment, but today's missive from the Western Business Roundtable is such a masterpiece of obfuscation that it cries out to be posted here, especially because it repeats similar baseless accusations against Barack Obama that were raised today by vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin. Here are the first two paragraphs of the release:
A bipartisan coalition of business leaders is calling on governors, state legislators and members of Congress to publicly express their opposition before tomorrow's election to proposals to "bankrupt" the U.S. coal industry and threaten to put out of work several hundred thousand Americans who work in coal-related industries.
The call was issued by the Western Business Roundtable following news reports that Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama intends to make it so costly to build advanced clean coal power plants with carbon capture and sequestration that it will "bankrupt" any company that tries to do so.
Well, no. The "news reports" refer to tapes that appeared Sunday on YouTube, which were excerpted from a discussion held by Obama with the San Francisco Chronicle editorial board in January. Here's what Obama said that has raised the ire of both Palin and the Western Business Roundtable:
What I've said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else's out there. I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter.... So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted. That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel and other alternative energy approaches. The only thing I've said with respect to coal, I haven't been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as an ideological matter, as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it.
Note carefully what Obama is saying here: He wants a cap-and-trade program that would set a price for greenhouse-gas emissions. That would make it prohibitively expensive to build new conventional coal plants, because they emit vast amounts of carbon. Yet that's not the way the Business Roundtable, a marketing organization for a coalition of Western CEOs, puts it. Its release says Obama's proposal would make it impossible to build "advanced clean coal power plants with carbon capture and sequestration." Actually, if the technology to capture and bury carbon emissions from coal plants existed (it's still under study, and may never be commercially viable), such a plant would emit only trace amounts of carbon, and thus be perfectly viable under Obama's cap-and-trade scheme.
This is why business groups get a bad name for trying to "greenwash" environmentally destructive projects: The roundtable clearly objects to Obama's stance on dirty, conventional coal, but in order to look as if it cares about the environment, it's pretending that Obama actually opposes carbon-capture technology, which he has repeatedly backed (that's what Obama meant when he said "if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it").
The Business Roundtable still could take a few pointers on Doublespeak, though, from the master: Palin. In a campaign appearance in Ohio, Palin brought up the same YouTube tape to blast Obama's stance on coal.
He said that, sure, if the industry wants to build new coal-fired plants, then they can go ahead and try. . . but they can do it only in a way that will bankrupt the coal industry, and he's comfortable letting that happen.
What Palin neglected to mention is that the guy she's running with, John McCain, favors a cap-and-trade program very similar to Obama's, which would have the exact same impact on conventional coal plants. No matter who wins, the coal industry is going to be in trouble. Maybe after the election we can all stop pretending otherwise.
* Photo by Charlie Riedel / AP
It is amazing of all the people that voted for Obama would have actually listened to what he said, that they would have changed their minds and voted for McCain.
Posted by: Anthony W. | January 03, 2009 at 09:03 PM
Both candiates support the same policy on coal. So whats with the finger pointing here? Theres nothing controversial, except that Obama spoke out on it and you have to go to McCain's website to read the same points.
It's this pressure from the goverment that forces the coal plants and other major polluters to clean up and switch to the cleaner burning plants. Without the cap-and-trade they have no motivation to change. And this change needs to come.
Posted by: dss | November 04, 2008 at 12:09 PM
Ha ha ha -- if a newspaper says anything positive about Obama, it must be biased. Never mind whether it's true or not! Go back to foxnews.com for your "unbiased" coverage!
Posted by: Mike | November 04, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Wait a minute. I think your angle is't what's important here. Is alternative energy attractive? Of course. We should definitely be moving toward it. Is coal a dirty technology which may well always remain dirty? Certainly.
But it's what we've got right now.
Oil is already a hot commodity. Too many people are terrified of nuclear power to let that go forward. Natural gas isn't really all that cheap either, when I look at my energy bill. And wind, solar, and other alternative energy sources are still being developed. They're not ready for the big time (read: to be our primary energy source on a national level) yet.
So coal is currently an essential part of our energy breadbasket of the nation. And Obama wants to sabotage that? Before we have anything else really ready to take its place?
That's not merely ill advised, or the words of an idealogue. That's monumental stupidity.
But hey, if you don't mind a gas and electric bill that resembles a mortgage in order to keep warm through the winter, by all means: vote Obama.
Posted by: Matthew | November 04, 2008 at 08:45 AM
I think the GOP is just flat out of ideas.People supporting the GOP will obviously see this story as biased.But do you guys stop to think that if they said something truthful for a change there wont be anyone to contradict the claims.You just cant oppose for the sake of opposing and claim that a story is biased.When you take parts of a comment made and blur the context of course people will question you on it.And anyways you can clearly see the hypocracy in the claims made...
Posted by: Emerson | November 04, 2008 at 07:20 AM
Trampus -- the photo was taken Feb. 2, 2007, at the Sunflower Electric Cooperative's coal-fired plant in Holcomb, Kan. I suspect you'd see the same plume if you went by there today. But as you note, and as Dan's piece makes clear, the issue here is CO2, not particulates or other visible emissions. Your point about the sun's temperature notwithstanding, McCain and Obama both embrace cap-and-trade systems to limit carbon emissions. You might spend a moment reading about the McCain-Lieberman bill here -- that's the non-partisan Pew Center on Global Climate Change's analysis.
Posted by: Jon Healey | November 03, 2008 at 10:31 PM
As a retired union boilermaker who has helped build some of the coal fired power plants and worked shut downs doing maintenance of a whole bunch more here in the western states I'd like to add a couple of comments. First of all todays coal fired power plants are pretty clean burning, with things like precipatators and scrubbers that clean the "smoke" before it goes up the stack so clean of particulate that it is all but non existent. So as for you Obamafever no one is dieing of coal dust except those coal miners back east who are working in underground coal mines and they're dieing from blacklung. As for "clean coal" technology, it already exists. Case in point, Healy Alaska, right in the shadow of Mt. Denali a small "clean coal" burning power plant was built in 1996. It's still in operation today and working fine. Ask anyone who has climbed Mt. Denali if they have found any coal dust on the mountain. An average of 300 people a year climb it. So to bring this to a close about the only real concern about todays coal fired power plants is their co2 output. Now just a point to ponder some scientists are say that our global warming is due to the suns temperature rising a few degrees, hmmm could it be possible ? Afterall it is a HUGE ball of burning hydrogen, sounds entirely logical to me afterall there is no thermostat to adjust the temperature that I'm aware of ...... How about you ?
So Obamafever and the rest of you tree hugging nazis get the real facts before you go running off at the mouth ! And you the L.A. Times when was the picture of that power plant taken, the 60s ? You drive by any coal fired power plant today and you won't see brown smoke coming out of the stack or any smoke for that matter. Also grow a pair and release the Obama tape !!! Why are you hiding it unless it'll cost your "messiah" the election and in which case I think you should be tried for treason.
As for Obamas pals Bill and Bernadette I believe they should be in prison. By their own admission recently they said "They didn't do enough bombing !!!" Remember the old saying "If you play with dirt, you're going to get dirty." Enuff said !!!!
Trampus
Posted by: Trent Lee | November 03, 2008 at 09:39 PM
@Kevin McGrath - Wow, talk about drinking the Kool Aid. You didn't read the book did you? Your just guessing aren't you? Come on, admit it, it's OK, you just wrote something foolish for the whole world to read huh?
The book is not about his father's dreams, it's about his dreams of having a father.
Wow.
Oh, and by the way, McCain even has a slide show that depicts his plan, which is the same for Obama's.
Posted by: rumblepup | November 03, 2008 at 09:05 PM
It would seem that the "cap and trade" proposal would cripple several of the industries that we as a nation rely on. It is another vailed attempt for our government to reach even deeper into our almost empty pockets. The tax on industry will be passed down to the consumer as it always is. If you believe that "cap and trade" is designed to benefit "mother earth" you need to check yourself into "Kool Aid" rehab before you you die from a red dye #5 overdose. Both democrats and republicans need to recognize this proposal for what it is. It is, without question just another excuse for our leaders in Washington to violate the Constitution and our freedom.
Posted by: the free thinking minority | November 03, 2008 at 08:22 PM
And for those of you who claim that McCain is for less regulation, sure less regulation of business and wall street and more regulation of our personal lives. I personally do not support abortion but I do not think a law banning it has any place in any government's constitution. Parents, do your job and raise your kids right and the issue will take care of itself. Stop being scared and give your kids a condom! I could care less about gay people getting married, it does not affect my taxes or paycheck. The sanctity of marriage is destroyed by heterosexual couples EVERYDAY!
Posted by: Michelle | November 03, 2008 at 07:51 PM
Hey martin:
Just like when every Democrat speaks their mind, we are accused of drinking kool-aid and being on welfare. The jibes go all around. Don't hug your sides and cry foul when your party is playing just as rough!
Posted by: Michelle | November 03, 2008 at 07:45 PM
I fear for the country that we have created. In communist countries, the government controls the press. What we have sunk to is far more dangerous. Under the guise of an objective press, the liberal, elite media push their agenda. You have abdicated your responsibility to the country and your fellow citizens. Trust me, you may win some battles, but in the end, our country will lose the war. When the machine that you've created turns on you (and trust me it will), I pray that you will be able to withstand the persecution.
Posted by: Jon Lipsky | November 03, 2008 at 07:36 PM
WOW, People are stupid if they don't agree with Obama? People who think for themselves and are not lead by the nose are the reason America is so divided? Remember people, mantras were the tools of the now defunct Socialist Peoples Republics. A big part of why they are defunct. One other funny coincidence (please not the sarcasm), they were all Deomcratic Peoples Republics.
A guy writes a book called dreams of my father, a father that left when he was six months old, that he visited once when he was ten and had no other meaningful contact with, but he wrote a book about his fathers dreams, and made millions on it. Does that sound like a con man to anyone else?
Posted by: Kevin McGrath | November 03, 2008 at 05:40 PM
A vote FOR McCain is vote against naked Marxism... it's time for all the 'Kool-Aid drinkers' to bone up. The great disaster is that they don't really KNOW the 'who & what' it is they're voting for. Some do. Most don't. When 'awakened', should Obama be their president, they will woefully regret having participated in their country's demise. Get a grip, you foolish people... aside from the shady alliances, and all other such issues, the bankrupting of coal companies means, in the process, your electric bills will be hiked enough to cost you a lot more than you'll ever 'get' from Obama. This, in & of itself is a mere sneak-peek into your future.
Posted by: Miss Prince | November 03, 2008 at 05:14 PM
'So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted"
No mention of advanced coal tech, Obama only says that "it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenshoud gas that's being emitted."
Note that It is not the same as "That would make it prohibitively expensive to build new conventional coal plants, because they emit vast amounts of carbon. "
The editorial implies Obama means to cut advanced coal tech some slack but with the evidence submitted in the column does not mention cleaner coal getting any breaks.
There is no supporting information presented to indicate Obama agrees with the writer. Not denying it is out there, but it is absent from this article with discredits the view.
Posted by: David L | November 03, 2008 at 05:04 PM
Martin, I appreciate your post, but I wanted to address one of your points because it's something I hear a lot from critics of environmental initiatives like the ones that both Obama and McCain support. Absolutely no one, including Obama, is talking about doing away with coal power overnight: That would be insane. Under a cap-and-trade scheme, you set a cap for how much carbon coal plants can emit, and you gradually lower the cap over time. This would discourage construction of new coal plants, but it would only lead to a gradual phasing out of existing ones.
Also, I see from many of the comments here that McCain supporters don't seem to be aware of their own candidate's policies on the environment and global warming. There is very little difference between Obama and McCain on this issue, the only real one being that Obama wants to cut greenhouse gases 80% by 2050 while McCain calls for only 60%. If you don't think this is true, I urge you to check out McCain's website: http://www.johnmccain.com/climatechange/
Posted by: Dan Turner | November 03, 2008 at 04:41 PM
Additionally, in response to Obamafever's claim that bankrupting the coal industry will allow people to live longer, where really is the evidence for that. Before coal lifespans were considerably shorter but this was of course due to other complications. Yet, if you want to examine any other historical lifespans, such as the Roman Emperors like Augustus Caesar lived nearly 80 years...this without a lot of pollution, but also with ancient healthcare.
It is also increasingly difficult to claim that removing pollution will significantly lengthen our lives. Some of the oldest humans, of recent times, living to about 120 years old have been lifelong smokers and did not lead "healthy" lives.
PSALM 90
Lord, you have been our dwelling place
throughout all generations.
Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
You turn men back to dust,
saying, "Return to dust, O sons of men."
For a thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.
You sweep men away in the sleep of death;
they are like the new grass of the morning-
though in the morning it springs up new,
by evening it is dry and withered.
We are consumed by your anger
and terrified by your indignation.
You have set our iniquities before you,
our secret sins in the light of your presence.
All our days pass away under your wrath;
we finish our years with a moan.
The length of our days is seventy years—
or eighty, if we have the strength;
yet their span [a] is but trouble and sorrow,
for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
Who knows the power of your anger?
For your wrath is as great as the fear that is due you.
Teach us to number our days aright,
that we may gain a heart of wisdom.
Relent, O LORD! How long will it be?
Have compassion on your servants.
Satisfy us in the morning with your unfailing love,
that we may sing for joy and be glad all our days.
Make us glad for as many days as you have afflicted us,
for as many years as we have seen trouble.
May your deeds be shown to your servants,
your splendor to their children.
May the favor [b] of the Lord our God rest upon us;
establish the work of our hands for us—
yes, establish the work of our hands.
Posted by: martin | November 03, 2008 at 04:34 PM
Is there a connection between Khalid al Mansour, OPEC, and Obama’s bankrupting America’s Coal Industry?
We all know that Percy Sutton connected Barack to Khalid Al Mansour in a news reel that exposed al Mansour as a proponent of Barack’s entrance to Harvard. A lot of people are stating that Khalid al Mansour works for OPEC. Without doubt, it would be to OPEC’s advantage to bankrupt America’s coal industry. Is this just a conspiracy, a coincidence or do we really have a fox in the hen house?
http://joeschmoepolitico.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/is-there-a-connection-between-khalid-al-mansour-opec-and-obamas-bankrupting-americas-coal-industry/
Posted by: joeschmoepolitico | November 03, 2008 at 04:28 PM
Wow, amazing how whenever a Republican or McCain supporter speaks their political opinion we are bashed for being stupid, backward, hicks "clinging to our guns and God." I'm sorry but this story is biased, rushing to the defense of Obama as soon as something unflattering comes out about his ideas. I have yet to see the media rush to defend McCain when he is politically questioned.
Personally, I am quite looking forward to America crumbling under Obama. The problem is too much government intervention, GET OUT OF MY LIFE. I do think we should get cleaner fuels and energy, but you can't do that OVERNIGHT, and killing coal plants will knock out 50% of our power, thus making it pretty difficult to develop new technology...(also I wonder why environmentalists don't avoid SUVs, trucks, cars, planes, power, anything that pollutes...they just demand that the little guy should. But I digress.)
I have a great fear that Obama is going to mandate how we live our lives, what we eat, what we do, what we believe, all in the name of supposedly improving America, when in reality he would be reversing the entire idea of America = Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness...with equal opportunity NOT equal results...
Posted by: martin | November 03, 2008 at 04:27 PM
Obamafever for ever...
I think it is an excellent idea to bankrupt coal industry. It will improve the environment and people can live longer who are dieing of carbon dust filled in their lungs. Vote democratic tomorrow and boot out those Bush/Cheney republicans who are nothing but a bunch of war-mongering, gun-toying, oil-sucking. wire-tapping. secretly-prisoning, illegally-torturing, environment-nazi, wall-street mafia !!!
Posted by: Obamafever | November 03, 2008 at 04:12 PM
So if coal companies make a big stinking mess they have to pay to clean it up?
That's controversial?
Posted by: Queen Sarah | November 03, 2008 at 04:12 PM
The Broadcast & Print Media have actively selected "items of interest" to report that generally favor Sen. Obama. With so many legitimate questions about Sen Obama's past & his credentials still not being given any real analysis, it really prevents me from having any faith in much of anything these news outlets report. I may as well read Pravda. To give an example on how unbalanced the reporting has been, if Richard M. Nixon had been running in this campaign & had ANY of these questions pending in his past, the Media would send LEGIONS of reporters & investigators to sniff out what they could for public dissemination & humiliation. Sen Obama is a great speaker & very charismatic. Other than that he's an empty suit. Being from the NYC area, the first lesson in "street smarts" is :Anyone telling everything you want to hear is a "con-man".
Posted by: T.M. Dwyer | November 03, 2008 at 04:08 PM
Liam wrote, "Like it or not, BOs words speak for themselves."
I agree.
"Change, change, change, change, spread the wealth, change, change, change, "Coal plants will go out of business", change, change, change, change, "Civilian National Security Force", change, change, change, (hires special advisors to help him "reset" expectations on campaign promises AFTER the election), change, change, change, change"
....'xcuse me while I throw up my dinner...
Posted by: RM23 | November 03, 2008 at 04:07 PM
mr.mcche would raise prices to a extreme of bankruting a company that holds holds 100's and thousands of jobs!
nice try though la times,since u have time trying to defend obama why dont u quit protecting him and release his tape with him and his radical friends!
Posted by: charrenee | November 03, 2008 at 04:04 PM
McCain isn't going to bankrupt ANYTHING. Obama specifically promises to bankrupt new coal plants and does not care if electric prices SKYROCKET!!! Obama promises!!! Release the Khaldi tape LA TIMES. STOP BEING OBAMA PRESS MACHINE. PEOPLE ARE BEING TO NOT TAKE THE LA TIMES SERIOUSLY.
Posted by: Deborah | November 03, 2008 at 04:03 PM