Civil rights campaigns have always been tarred by the majority, with accusations of either trumped-up crimes, or with the imputation to all of the worst excesses of their most radical members. So I think we have heard quite enough from concern trolls here, who say rather incredibly they are on the side of gay rights advocates, while curiously harping on a select few Prop. 8 opponents' tactics.

In any event, no distasteful tactic could change the fact Prop. 8 opponents are on the side of the good and the right. And conversely, even if Prop. 8 proponents followed Marquis of Queensbury rules to block civil rights - and with their vile religious rants and hatemongering sermons, they hardly do - this would not change the fact they are on the side of the evil and the wrong; it is worth noting that opponents of gay rights have the luxury of being more polite in championing their cause, because opposition to gay rights, however wrong, is mainstream and considered just fine in polite society. Gay rights advocates, on the other hand, need to be loud and visible to mainstream their message, and at the same time, as long as gay rights are not widely accepted, they will be accused of bad tactics or being unnecessarily provocative. These accusations, masquerading as procedural and pretending not to be critiques of the substance of a cause, are almost always in fact covers for opposition to the substance of a cause.

When racial and ethnic minorities fought for their civil rights, they did not accept the norms of polite society for what they were. They did not keep quiet waiting for gradual social change, even though, in fact, change has been too gradual and slow for other minority groups. No promise of change in the future can mitigate that the marginalization of gays and lesbians and fanatical religions' powers to impose their norms on all of us are wrong on principle whether people recognize it, are injustices now, are evil now, and must be rectified.

How funny: some of these comments claim that not allowing them to force their belief system upon your personal life oppresses their rights.

Why is it that Christians have to be "tolerant" of the opinions of homosexuals, but homosexuals don't have to be "tolerant" of the opinions of Christians (stepping on crosses, sending mysterious white powders, cursing, spitting, physically attacking, etc.). Sad, very sad.

LUKE
It is indeed a constitutional right to use the unfair advantage of the pulpit to champion political clauses. The only restriction imposed by statute and case law is on advocating for candidates. We have to respond to things the way they are, not the way they should be. It's imperative to be informed, avoid expressing bigotry, invective and ad hominem (not that you're guilty of the latter two, but many are), and present reasonable and cogent arguments (as you mostly do).

It's a battle for hearts and minds, and we gain nothing from alienating those who are in the majority and already disagree with us. Excercizing patience and longsuffering, we have to convince people of the rightness of our cause. Acceptance isn't a decision handed down by a court, but a change of heart.

MARK

While I'll attempt to refrain from lowering myself to your level, I will point out a few facts:

1. I am neither a Mormon nor Evangelical, and have no love loss for either I self identify as a Christian and pragmatist, with substantial social democrat and green leanings. I don’t know how to say this plainly without being insulting: even a cursorily cogent reading of my previous post reveals that I support gay rights and am not a Mormon.

2. My thoughts go to strategy. The childish response to the Prop. 8 vote (including your childish blathering) won’t win any hearts and minds, and in fact will result in a significant setback. I’m seeing many, many heartfelt expressions of gratitude for the Mormon’s efforts by evangelicals in the blogosphere. This is nothing short of astonishing, and a huge turnaround from Mitt’s recent presidential bid failure. In fact, it significantly strengthens Mitt’s future prospects. Why? Because the Mormons are reacting to the hatred and invective being hurled their way with grace and forbearance, making the LGBT community look like hysterical Brownshirts in contrast. Additionally, it is mow clear that Mormons are instrumental in accomplishing what Evangelicals couldn’t accomplish on their own, and the LGBT community is unwittingly (or dimwittingly) ensuring that that fact is driven home. Without Mormons, Evangelicals don’t stand an ice cube’s chance in hell, politically speaking, and all the LGBT community has thus far accomplished is to drive them into each others arms.

I didn't get involved in the prop 8 campaign and maybe it's a good thing because now I have saved my energy and resources for the second round. I am so disgusted by the GLBT crowd. Before I hardly gave them a second thought. I gave them the tolerance they said they wanted. Now their completely intollerant and hateful demonstrations have shown me what they truly are. They have created in me an activist against their cause. Before, I didn't care. But now, I'm ready to jump in and fight their bigotry and hate. Way to go gay crowd, in a way I'm glad to finally have an opinion on the matter.

It is not your constitutional right to use the competitive advantage of a tax-exempt pulpit to drum up support for political causes. It is, however, the constitutional right of your opponents to point out the unfairness of your tactics.

It is not a civic virtue to invoke democratic rights, in order to deny others their democratic rights. It is not a triumph of democracy, simply because a majority gets together and decides something: When the basic prerequisites of democracy, such as equality, are lacking, a simple majority's decision is not necessarily the most democratic one. Constitutional issues are proper for the courts, and the Constitution is a proper restraint on what majorities may do in a democracy.

Rathje, Prop. 8 opponents have every right not to spend money at businesses and with business owners that contribute to hostile political causes, esp. causes premised on denying a minority group its constitutional equality right.

We hardly need a finger-wagging lecture from you or anyone else in this forum in favor of Prop. 8, since it is you, not we, who fanatically want to impose your norms on all of us, and who voted to strip same-sex couples of the esteem and respect you give as a matter of course to opposite-sex couples.

To Prop. 8 proponents: You are the villains in the struggle for right, justice and equality. You are wrong about the democratic process, wrong about the role of the Constitution and the courts, and wrong about free speech and the church. But most importantly, you are wrong about the dignity and equality of gay people. History will expose you as just such villains, not to mention expose your process arguments about democracy and free speech as covers for your bigotry.

And "Misguided," who writes, "They may vote for you, but they won't fight for you:" If you think people who are not gay won't fight for the equal dignity of all and for the resistance to fanatical religion's imposing their views on all of us, with great passion and intensity... are you ever wrong.

There may be a case to be made to fight prop 8 on age discrimination. Take the case of a couple where they wanted to marry but one wasn't 18yo before Prop 8 passed. How could CA court justify some gays are legally married in the State, but a younger gay now 18 yo is denied it?

As a Mormon I'll admit I donated $20 to the cause.

I actually opposed Prop 8.

But I'm utterly disgusted with the behavior gay protesters.

NPR just reported that a crowd of protesters is picketing a small restaurant owned by a guy who donated $100 of his own money for Yes on Prop 8.

Are you freaking kidding me?

What's next? Throwing eggs at Mormon children on the way home from school?

What is wrong with you people?

The GBLT community ought to be utterly ashamed of itself right now.

I think the gay community is misguided in thinking that everyone who voted no on 8 is going to support them by boycotting Mormons and stop skiing in Utah. Many people were persuaded by the idea that rights should not be taken away. But joining in a fight is different. If you are not gay, you will likely just go back to business. They may vote for you, but they won't fight for you.

Listen loud and clear gay community - if you want our support, calm down and show us that you can accept our views. If you want to look like the good guys, say: "hey, we just want equal rights - you can have the word (marriage)".

Well, congratulations. The nutty wing of the LGBT community and its supporters have accomplished for the LDS church what it couldn't accomplish for itself in 170+ years: give it credibility in the larger Christian community.

Let's not forget that all Prop. 8 did was remove a legal semantic distinction which is protected in common usage by the US Constitution, anyway. Practically speaking, Civil Unions in California bestow the same rights as marriage. The backlash against Prop. 8 will predictably engender a backlash against the backlash by a MUCH larger and more powerfull faction (Evangelicals and social conservatives) that inevitably will make it much more difficult for LGBT rights.

The courts are NOT the way to approach the issue of gay marriage. The opposition is astonishingly well organized and financed. If they can overturn a court decision of ths type in California, they can do it anywhere, anytime, and probably a lot harder. Incrementalism in this case is the best approach, and maybe the only approach with a possibility of ultimate success. The backlash to the California Supreme Court's fiat on gay marriage is ultimately going to be hard to bear, and it's only beginning. In the case of California, there was little to gain and much to lose. The baby's gone with the bathwater.

btw Utah folks laughing at a Prop 8 boycott of Utah,

Almost EVERY Fortune 500 Companies has benefits for same sex couples, because they know having the best and brightest employees....includes gays and lesbians.

Do you think those SAME Companies are going to book conventions at the SALT PALACE ,if their LGBT employees say they won't attend such a conference?