Undo 11,000 marriages?
Because counties don't keep a tally of whether the couples who get marriage licenses are of the same gender, it's been impossible to know how many gay and lesbian weddings have occurred since the state Supreme Court ruling took effect in mid-June. All of these marriages would probably be declared invalid--a kind of mass divorce by state initiative--if Proposition 8's ban on same-sex marriage passes in November.
The Williams Institute at UCLA came out today with a number, or at least an estimate: 11,000 same-sex weddings from June 17 to September 17. They did this by totting up, county by county, the number of marriages last year during that time and comparing it with this year, assuming that most of the increase would have been a result of the Supreme Court ruling. That seems like a pretty good assumption, since the biggest increases were seen in counties like L.A. and San Francisco that are known to have big gay populations.
This fits in neatly with the big delay to the big Proposition 8 sign-planting. Remember how in late September, a possible 1 million religionists were supposed to march out of their homes, at roughly the same time, and plant a Yes on Proposition 8 sign on their front lawns? Seems the printing of a number of those signs was outsourced to another country or countries--the campaign isn't saying which, but the blog rumor mill has been saying China--and the signs were somehow delayed. I see that the bumper stickers, which showed up in a more timely fashion, exhort people to "Restore Marriage." But what does this mean in the context of 11,000 same-sex marriages that stand to be undone by the initiative, a 17% increase in the number of all marriages in the state? Whose bumper stickers are these, anyway? Seems like the anti-Prop. 8 folks could use the same slogan; maybe there should be a few last-minute changes to those lawn signs before they arrive, whenever that is.
Photo by Ben Margot/AP
Actually whether the marriages between now and Nov.remain valid or not if Prop. 8 passes is up in the air. Since ballot measures cannot be retroactive, the AG has said the marriages between now and the election would remain valid.
Posted by: Stan | October 06, 2008 at 01:57 PM
To (admittedly, some) supporters of Prop. 8: Tearing other people down is not going to make you happy. Gay people have found love and commitment just like straight people have in their marriages. If heterosexual marriage were so superior and the only life worth choosing, why would an alternative be a cause for alarm at all? Why is the idea that children might grow up in a different kind of family or one day choose something different from your norms so threatening to you? I just don´t understand why you have to insert yourselves into other people´s business and try to poison their happiness to make yourselves feel better.
Posted by: Luke | October 06, 2008 at 04:18 PM
Why do we have to do it? Why do homosexuals and the state have to push their beliefs on millions of other people? I am tired of people saying that the "religious" are forcing their beliefs on society, when society is forcing its belief on the religious. We do not want a society filled with behavior that we consider immoral and that will errode and decay the rest of society. Satan has been working overtime by tearing families apart (as evidenced by the high divorce rate). Moraliy and loyalty do not mean much today. Last thing we need is Satan driving another wedge into the moral fabric of society that is marriage.
If the state wants to grant priveleges to homosexual couples that are equal to or greater than heterosexual couples, so be it. Just leave marriage alone, let us teach our children what marriage is really about. I'm not worried of teachers in schools forcing our children to believe in gay marriage, I just don't want the teachers presenting immoral stories in our school about two same gender individuals being married. That is not the place of the teachers or the schools. TEACH MORE MATH AND ENGLISH and less touchy-feely cultural sensitivity lessons
Posted by: Braun | October 06, 2008 at 07:40 PM
Braun, Satan has absolutely nothing to do with this. It's people who refuse to think for themselves and would rather base their ENTIRE worldview around a book, written by flesh and blood men--NOT GOD--thousands of years ago for a completely different culture that no longer exists, who are the real problem.
Please telll me and everybody else, sir, how YOU would feel if your right to be married to your wife was put to a popular vote by the people.
Think about it. It's not rocket science.
Posted by: Brian | October 06, 2008 at 09:33 PM
People should vote in favor of Proposition 8 because it simply confirms the common sense notion that marriage between a man and a woman promotes a healthy social system. It is in the best interest of our children that they be taught in the schools that, ideally, families contain one mother and one father. A stable father/mother unit promotes children of better health, stronger character and greater focus. Study after study has proven this. If Proposition 8 does not pass, your tax dollars will support the teaching of children -- as young as kindergarden -- that gay marriage is option for them. Gay marriage is not just about private lives and private matters -- that is a lie. If it was just about privacy, there would be no need for redefinition, because under California law gays have all the legal rights as straight couples.
Posted by: Ken | October 06, 2008 at 09:36 PM
So, Braun,
Exactly whose freedom of religion would Prop 8 protect? Certainly not all as there is an increasingly number of religions that support same-sex marriage. Not everyone believes in your religion. What about them?
Posted by: DanO | October 06, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Ken wrote "A stable father/mother unit promotes children of better health, stronger character and greater focus."
No one is disputing that. Prop 8 is not a referendum on that point. Prop 8 is a refererdum on whether same-sex couples can have the same equality and state-recognized benefits as opposite sex couples. One of the 1st homes in my parents subdivision (in IL) was a same sex couple. Over the yrs, many opposite sex couples, many w/children, moved in. The the one of the 1st couples who lived there were same sex was not a distraction or determint for the development of their subdivision or take anything away from a neighborhood in which to raise kids. Second point: CDFS (chld dev and fam res) studies show no diff in various parameters betw kids raised by same sex parents as opposite sex parents. Please, let's get the facts str8.
Posted by: Ted | October 07, 2008 at 07:53 AM
Ken, show me one study that says man/woman families are "healthier" than gay families. The American Psychological Association has consensus that children growing up in gay families are just as "healthy" as those growing up in heterosexual ones. D-I-V-O-R-C-E hurts families. If you want to protect families, ban DIVORCE. By the way, my mom is gay and both my brother and I each have PhDs, successful careers and are happily married.
Posted by: LC | October 07, 2008 at 08:04 AM
Braun, until your church pays taxes and stops taking its exempt status for granted you have no right at all to tell honest tax paying Gay citizens who they can marry. Want to solve the current economy crisis, start taxing the churches. Why should gay families give your church a free ride while we pay taxes, and yet you think you can dictate morality. I think not. Time to start collecting signutures to amend the constitution to have Anti friendly churches start paying taxes. How sad you have let your original good book the Bible mislead you into thinking such hateful things. Get on your knees and pray for forgivness.
Posted by: Sad for America | October 07, 2008 at 09:32 AM
I am so sick of America NOT living up too what it espouses to the rest of the world.."Liberty & Justice for All"..? Really? To me those words ring EMPTY..truly empty. Im sick and tired of what a Hateful,bigoted country we've become under 8yrs of GOP rule....Im sickened.
Posted by: Disgusted american | October 07, 2008 at 09:41 AM
Here is the thing. To Braun and Ken. Ken argues that "People should vote in favor of Proposition 8 because it simply confirms the common sense notion that marriage between a man and a woman promotes a healthy social system." At 50% divorce rate I strongly disagree with you. Heterosexuals have not made their case with marriage. If you want to protect your institution, then start by treating it better. Fine, don't give us gays marriage but then do something about your horrible divorce rate. Abolish divorce then, cause you really don't need divorce for such a great institution.
The real problem is that people think that they have to right to vote for this issue. I am sorry but you don't have the right to vote for my life. As much as you think you are entitled to, you are not; and until people realize that your approval does not validate or deny my life then we will continue to have these problems.
You have bigger problems to deal with in our public school system. Deal with drugs and violence, those are your real problems. In the meantime try to remember that it is not your place to vote in favor or against gay marriage.
Posted by: Mario | October 07, 2008 at 09:41 AM
It is so arrogant of people to even say that gays are trying to push their beliefs on them. Do you really think that gay people are trying to get married to push their agenda on you?? Who do you think you are? We don't give a rat's butt for what you have to say or think about marriage. We just want to commit to our partners and enjoy the same social benefits that marriage affords. Plain and simple. We work just as you, we pay taxes (more than most of you married folks). If you want to take away our rights then you should compensate us for it. Give us gays an extra tax break for not being able to file joint taxes with our partners. You don't like the sound of that, do you?
For the purposes of rights and equality you treat us as less, but you always hold us accountable just like any other person otherwise. Get over your homophobia, which at the end of the day is the one and only reason why you don't agree with gay marriage. be honest, we can deal with that a lot better.
Posted by: Mario | October 07, 2008 at 09:49 AM
Satan has everything to do with this, so judge accordingly. Again, you are free to feel and think anyway you like. And, so do I. You can yell and scream at the top of your lungs that this is a civil rights issue. It's not, it's a moral issue...hence the reason many religions are stepping into the fray. You have the right to go to the polls and vote how you wish. And so do I.
Personally, I choose the moral high road, which seems to be slipping here in America. It is interestingly that when a country removes itself from the moral base in which it was founded that it is setting itself up to fail. Now, I am not one to advocate that God destroys those who are immoral or sinful. We as persons, people, or nation remove ourselves from God's protection when we are unrighteous.
Going back to my previous point. This is a moral issue and so I will vote according to my morals. In all this mess, I choose my children. I choose to raise my children in a society that believes in morality, believes in abstaining from sex before marriage, believes in male-female marriages, and believes in shunning poronography. Anything other than this will lead to unhappiness of the individual and society.
This proposition is a lose-lose situation. Either the homosexual's lose in what they convice to be a civil rights issue (which it is not), or the moral religious society (no need to bring up the immoral religious groups---because there are those too) lose. What do the latter lose? Initially, perhaps not much, but mark my ward it is the beginning of a cascade of the gay agenda encroaching upon the religious to silence them. If the proposition fails, do you think homosexuals are going to sit back and say, "Yeah we won, let's leave the religious people alone." Or, are they going to say, "Hey, we've won our civil rights (which its not, it's a moral issue). HOW dare those religious people teach the homosexuality is bad and immoral! I have an idea, that's sue them for hate speech!"
Then, those who speak out against the immoral behavior or homosexuality become the focus of the attack. Eventually, its going to lead to persecution of the moral religious part of society.
It's a lose-lose situation, but for me, I'm in favor of protecting me, my children, and society.
Oh, and you can lay off the "think for your selves" crap, because I have navigated several years of undergraduate and graduate school listening to a bunch of liberal professors teach their indoctrination. Frankly, I am thinking for myself.
Posted by: Braun | October 07, 2008 at 10:10 AM
I'll make you a trade, Vote Yes on 8 and you can tax my church. There's more important things than money.
Posted by: Braun | October 07, 2008 at 11:35 AM
…and when I say trade, I mean principles and values because I would never imply or offer to buy or sell a vote. Let’s exchange what is important to me, a moral society, to what is important to you, taxes and money.
Posted by: braun | October 07, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Braun, you are a black Bible tyrant hiding behind the mask of righteousness. Your evil goal of dehumanizing inocent people will fail. If not today sometime soon. Mark my words.
Posted by: Sad for America | October 07, 2008 at 03:07 PM
I am going to be with my spouse whether another group likes it or not. We are going to live next door to you. We are going to send our children to the same schools. We will pay our taxes, shop at the grocery store, and stand on the side lines at the soccer field with you. Our children will play with your children. It is likely that some of your children will be gay. I am happy to be a role model for them.
Posted by: Mary | October 07, 2008 at 03:51 PM
It's amazing that some people continue to insist that marriage equality -- equal marriage rights for all citizens -- is not about equal rights. Braun calls it a moral issue. Guess what? Terrorists with bomb packs think they are dealing with a moral issue too. They're so committed to it that they overcome the real morality of not killing innocents in order to enforce their twisted version of 'morality' as Braun also does. It's just a matter of degree. Braun, feel free to indoctrinate your children however you wish. But keep your nose out of my business.
Posted by: Terre | October 07, 2008 at 06:13 PM
Braun, you NEVER answered my question. How would you feel if your right to be married to your wife--or anybody unlucky enough to live with you--was put to a popular vote by your peers? You're so quick and eager to demoralize and look down your nose to gay people, total strangers who have NOTHING to do with your life, but you still never give a SECOND'S consideration to how you would feel if it was your happiness being voted on. That would be a whole new ballgame, wouldn't it? Deny it here all you want, but you would just as outraged as any gay man and woman across this country.
Posted by: Brian | October 07, 2008 at 09:40 PM
Homosexuality is not a choice. Either you are or you aren't. I am sick to death of people implying that allowing gay marriages is going to turn society gay. Does heterosexuality need to be promoted? No. Because the vast majority are straight to begin with. You marry based on your sexual preference which is already an innate quality from birth. Allowing gay marriages isn't going to make you gay! I promise you it will NOT happen.
Posted by: david | October 08, 2008 at 01:46 AM
Of course Braun didn't answer your question, he is a coward that wants to stay in his house and keep everything the same in the world, because change is "scary".
Those who are for prop 8 can not even hold an intelligent conversation. You know, a conversation where people exchange views and answer questions asked of them. Then at the end actually evaluated their own opinions using the new knowledge they have gained. It’s a shame all that “undergrad and grad schooling” was wasted on such a close minded individual. Maybe you children will have the good sense to not follow in your footsteps.
All these “studies” that you speak of in support of your side, where are they?
I’ve seen several studies named in this comment section but none from the “yes on prop 8” side.
Posted by: Eli | October 08, 2008 at 09:22 AM
I find it ironic that liberals call people who do not agree with them closed minded. This is the classic tactic of agree with me or be considered bigotted and closed minded. This argument only shows your bigotry and closed mindedness to my conservative values.
I also find it ironic that I was the only one evaluting the lose-lose situation of the proposition. As I have mentioned, take all the rights you want. I even said take more rights than what married individuals receive, just leave our moral, religious institution of marriage alone.
As far as your question, Brian, If you and your buddies tried to abolish hetrosexual marriage. I'd fight it of course. But heterosexual marriage is natural. There's a big difference between heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage. The former is a benefit to society, the second is pure self-gratification for the parties involved.
But...WAIT, let's be opened minded here. Let's consider allowing homosexual marriage to move forward. Then what? Next, you and your friends will be wanting to lower the age of consent (or eliminate it altogether) so pedophiles can feel accepted, loved in society, and feel free to practice the way they want. Why stop there? Why not allow people to marry animals so those into that sort of thing can also be accepted by society? What do you think? Where do we stop?
Posted by: Braun | October 08, 2008 at 04:10 PM
Let me start by saying that I'm a Christian, heterosexual, married woman with children.
That being said, I am appalled at some of the comments made from other Christians here.
I'm going to address some of Ell's comments only for now.
One , the definition of bigot is this: one who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
If you don't want to be called a bigot , then don't act like one. Don't vote in favor of a proposition that favors Christian heterosexuals above all others .
Two, marriage is NOT "our moral, religious institution ."
Marriages have always taken place between men and women of all different faiths and even those who are not religious. You can still have a Christian marriage regardless of whether Prop 8 passes or not. What you are doing by voting yes on Prop 8 is saying that others should not have the equal right to have the tyoe of marriage they want with the people they love. The Bible teaches that we are to love God and that we are to love others as ourselves. So why would you vote to allow yourself something good while denying others that same good thing? That is not loving your neighbor. That is mean!
Three, how is heterosexual marriage a benefit to society? Are you implying that it's because a heterosexual couple can produce children naturally?
If so, wow, what an insult to married couples who choose not to produce children or married couple who cannot produce children naturally so have to adopt. Do you go around insulting all the childless heterosexual couples you know because they are in their marriages purely for self-gratification?
Four, your comments comparing homosexuals to pedophiles is downright insulting and ignorant. Should I assume that because you're a heterosexual you would like to see the marriage age lowered so that you can legally have sex with 13 year old girls. A homosexual is no more of a pedophile than you are. Nor is he more or less apt to want to have sex with animals than you are.
I suggest that you open your mind and heart, read some of Misty Irons' Christian articles in support of gays , and learn why Christians can and should vote no on Prop 8.
Posted by: Anne | October 08, 2008 at 08:07 PM
'Why not allow people to marry animals so those into that sort of thing can also be accepted by society?' That assessment, Braun, says alot about your intelligence or lack thereof. You're pathetic and ultimately no less of a clueless sociopathic bigot than that equally messed-up psuedo-religious nut-job who shot up that church in Tennessee. Why don't you just quit making such an embarrassing ass out of yourself and stop worrying over something that isn't going to affect your heterosexual marriage. If two strangers of the same sex getting married is enough to shatter your sacred relationship, then---let me fill you in, pal---you don't have much of a relationship worth speaking of. Grow up!
Posted by: Brian | October 08, 2008 at 08:40 PM
Who do you think raised most of us homos out there?! I am 1 of 5 children. All my siblings are straight. We were raised by straight parents. Why do you think they are all straight and I'm gay?
You are all so concerned that children being exposed to homosexual parents grow up and "choose" a gay lifestyle but how do you explain me? How do you explain most of us who are gay? How many of your brothers and sisters are afraid to come out of the closet because you will pass judgement on them?
Get a clue people. Straight parents raise gay kids, and gay parents raise straight kids. It makes no difference. The goal is to be a good parent whether you are gay or straight.
Posted by: Karen | October 09, 2008 at 03:35 PM