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The swan song for Prop. 8?

Clay Aiken, Prop. 8, gay marriage, in vitro fertilization, gay parents
People magazine handout, courtesy AP
The news that Clay Aiken has come out of the closet makes me wonder what the reaction might be among supporters of Proposition 8, which would limit marriage in California to the union between one man and one woman. It's not just that Aiken is a born-again Christian whose core fan base overlaps with Prop. 8's strongest supporters. It's that Aiken has done the thing that seems to bother those supporters the most: he's brought a child into the world through in vitro fertilization. Oh, the horrors....

The cover of the new People magazine, which comes out (so to speak) tomorrow, shows Aiken holding his newborn son Parker as he declares his sexual preference in GIANT BOLDFACE LETTERS -- an image that could cause head-spinning cognitive dissonance among (the few?) Aiken fans who didn't already suspect his homosexuality. And yet, maybe there's something for the Prop. 8 advocates to work with here. As People reported, Parker's mom is Aiken's best friend, music producer Jaymes Foster. So perhaps the Prop. 8 folks will get lucky and Aiken will offer to make her an honest woman before Nov. 4.

By the way, Prop. 8 looks like it needs all the help it can get. It hasn't polled well, although supporters say that people may be reluctant to tell pollsters how they really feel about it. Then again, in this state, maybe they aren't.

 

Comments () | Archives (53)

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Brian

It seems the religious fanatics LOVE gay people... even more so than main stream society... right up until they come out ... I would hope that with each *surprise* they would come to understand that gay people are among them, always have been, always will be and the Christian thing to do is love them regardless.

Liz in CA

Good. Proposition 8 is hateful and creates an intolerable "separate but equal" class of people. I am appalled that so many faux-"Christians" in OTHER states are seeming to make OUR business their own. A REAL Christian recognizes that God created *everyone* in His world, and that we should all love and support one another, includling differences, not tear each other down.

Jesse

"REAL Christian recognizes that God created *everyone* in His world, and that we should all love and support one another, includling differences, not tear each other
down."

First of all, you assume you are authoritative on the definition of REAL Christian.

Second of all, you state that we should love and support one another, including differences. Your first statement implies that those who disagree with your second statement are not REAL Christians.. Such a statement by you is equivalent to "tearing people down" for THEIR differences...specifically differences of opinion.

I believe as a Christian, for example, that homosexual behavior is disordered - just like other disorderly behavior, such as extramarital sex etc. Because of this DIFFERENCE, I am not a REAL Christian - according to you.
That hurts, I wish you wouldn't tear me down like that.

rusty

The economy is sinking and people are losing their jobs across the country. What better time than now for proponents for California’s Prop 8 to outsource their one million “Yes on Prop 8″ yard signs to China?

Those “Yes On Prop 8″ signs were intended to miraculously appear on lawns all across California at 7:00 am on September 22 to give the appearance of a sudden “blossoming of support” (their words, oft repeated) for the initiative, according to plans devised by LDS backers of California’s “Yes on Prop 8″ campaign. But a serious glitch in that plan means that those signs weren’t ready for last Monday’s launch.

Julia Rosen Calitics blog contacted Gena Downey, producer of the cult Mormon film “God’s Army,” who works on the “Yes on Prop 8″ campaign. Downey responded with an email confirming that those million signs are “still in route from China” and aren’t expected for another couple of weeks. Rosen concludes:

So, the Yes campaign, rather than purchasing some good old fashioned union made in America lawn signs, they went to some cut rate producer in China who blew the delivery date by at least three weeks. What, they couldn’t afford traditional American signs?

That seems to have worked out well. Why does the Yes on 8 campaign hate America?
from Jim B at BTB http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/

mmhurst

Jesse, here is my problem with your logic. Hitler thought Jews were substandard people. If one were to complain to Hitler that his beliefs were wrong, he could claim using your logic, that his views were being used against him and that he himself was being treated as a substandard person. I think it is right to speak out against Hitler. I think it is right to speak out against any person's bigotry without fear of turning myself into a bigot. You stated, “Such a statement by you is equivalent to "tearing people down" for THEIR differences.” Your bigotry (which you claim is your “difference”) is something I think should be allowed to be attacked. Being Jewish, gay or black isn’t a “difference” that people who identify as such can be attacked for. I get that you are trying to turn yourself into the victim, but for a victimizer like yourself, it just fails the logic test.

cantbelieve22

Hollywood is so messed up. California is so messed up. How can you, with a clear conscience argue that polygamy is wrong? At least they take care of their families. As opposed to hollywood where the philosophy is sleep with somebody, have a baby, split up. It is polygamy in hollywood. It is just one at a time. Its screwed up. Homosexuality is as much an "abomination" as is the dreaded "polygamy" What a joke. Thanks hollywood for screwing up the country.

Jesse

Mmhurst,
I'm glad you cited logic for your support, I'll put your arguments in true logical form:

1: Jesse claims homosexual sex is morally disordered

2: Mmhurst's supposition is that the claim of moral disorder requires the person "guilty" of the moral disorder be substandard

3: Therefore, Jesse must believe homosexual people are substandard

Mmhurst's supposition (#2), is invalid, therefore the proposition, #3, is logically invalid.

Next:

Restated a bit differently:
1: Homosexual sex is behavior
2: Bigotry is behavior

It is permitted to speak against behavior, which is why you are not a bigot for speaking out against the behavior of bigotry.

Since it is permitted to speak against behavior, I am not a bigot for speaking out against the behavior of homosexual sex.

Hitler was a bigot in that he believed his race was superior to that of others. Hitler was wrong for his behavior - again, it is perfectly acceptable, and you apparently agree, to speak out against behavior.

Speaking out against behavior does not equal bigotry.

Thanks!
Jesse

Paul Benedict

One reason Proposition 8 should pass is because people don't want their marriages to be reduced to a union between "Party A" and "Party B." We pay enough in taxes it might be nice if the state told the truth and acknowledge married couples as "husband" and "wife."

Another reason it might well pass is that most folks don't want to be forced by law to lie to children and say that people who are not married are married.

Finally, if anyone has actual compassion on people struggling with homosexuality, they might think twice about pretending that it is an orientation that presents almost no obstacles to ever having a family.

The pictures are nice, but it’s just pretend. That's why the actors are all out in front... Sorry, that's the truth…


Finally, if anyone has actual compassion on people struggling with homosexualiy, they might think twice about pretending that it is an orientation that presents all but impossible obstacles to ever having a family.

The pictures are nice, but its just pretend. That's why the actors are all out front... Sorry, that's the truth.

jsadler

Let me give you the bible belt view of this remark I have read so far. First of all you can not live a gay lifestyle and call yourself a born again christain, that is not true. This is a fact and if you read your bible you will understand why. If you let yourself believe you can live this type of lifestyle you are only kidding yourself and in danger at the Judgement before God like any other sin you live and do in life. Now I understand we should not, as christains judge others or cause harm or even talk down to other in the way they live but being christains: true christains we should show love and example and let our life show by example what is good and health and what is not. A true christain will pray for those who need help and understanding and be there by showing love when in need. We can not blame anyone or any state on how others may choose to live. Our lives are build on choices and we choose how we live each day, no one can make these choices but ourself and only ourself will answer for them. God looks at all sin as sin no big no small, in his eyes all are the same. You showing hate or hurt to others because you don't like the way they are, is sin too. We all have a job to do being christains ,showing and teaching but not to judge. You plant the seed and Christ will cause it to grow We need to keep in mind that all life is not easy and each one of us has a choice and most of all try to remember prayer is the key to all understanding. We need to just pray that our life will show an example and our love will help it happen. The power of prayer can move a mountain and our tongue can cut like a two bladed sword. "You make the choice'.

Richard

To cantbelieve22 and Jesse, i would have to say i understand your points of view i my self was raise Catholic and was told over and over that Homosexuality was wrong and that marriage was between a man and a women but at the same time they told me to love thy nieghbor and that god created everyone and everything as he ment them to be and that as good catholics we should not judge others. At the time i found it very confusing and thought it didn't make sense and i still dont think that it makes sense to hate one or many individuals because they are gay, or otherwise . I myself am a 21 year old gay man, an eagle scout, a college student, a son, a brother and a friend to many people. i also know in my soul that i am homosexual and that it isn't anything that i can control or change and that it is not a choice. i have also been in a long term relationship with someone i love and care for more then anything in the world and hope to someday in the future marry him. my love for him is honestly no different them the love you two have for your boyfriend or girlfriend and i dont see why it should be limited just because of one or many people's beliefs. i am not say you are wrong to believe that marriage is between a man and a women, you have a right to believe what you want but what i want you to think about is that not everyone in this state or country has your same beliefs, not everyone is catholic or christian or whatever. and for that reason i want you to think is it fair to push your beliefs on others that may not believe the same thing. if this situation was turned around and someone decided to create a bill that said you couldn't marry who you wanted because thoses peoples beliefs said it was wrong, how would you feel? wouldnt you be angry, sad, upset etc? i know i am. and if that situation was turned around and someone wanted to make a law that said marriage is only between same sex people, or what ever i would vote it down because its unfair and it takes away an individuals right based off a small part of who they are, what they look like or who they are attracted to. i was taught our country was built on an idea of freedom for all and that we we are all created equally whether or not we have different beliefs, morals, skin color, hair colors, ethnicities, whatever. so please before you vote think how would you feel if your rights were taken from you because someone elses beliefs said that your love was wrong ? would that be fair? iwould it be right?

Richard

dear Paul Benedict, i sorry to inform you but that is only your version of the truth. second more then just actors are against this prop for example U.S. Senator Barack Obama, U.S. House Speaker and California Representative (8th District) Nancy Pelosi, Both Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer, the two senators representing California, mayors of San Francisco and Los Angeles, Gavin Newsom and Antonio Villaraigosa, Six senior California Episcopal bishops, Software designer and philanthropist Bruce Bastian, and many others are all against Prop 8. lastly the idea that homosexuality is an ailment or a disease is an old myth that has now been proven wrong inmany ways for example many families have long lines of gay relative which references the idea of a gene. and honestly stop talking as if you know what everyone wants because you don't if your going to state an opinion say its yours and leave it at that.

Sara Callow

Marriage equality is long overdue. Outside of religiously based arguments, there is simply no reason for discriminating against same sex couples. With freedom of religion enshrined in the first amendment, I struggle to understand how it is possible to create a state constitution that discriminates against citizens on a religious basis. I firmly believe that even just 20 years from now, it will appear ridiculous and bigoted to have stood in defense of Proposition 8.

mmhurst

Jesse #2, I don't believe that anyone was talking about a specific sex act. The discussion surrounded a group a people, not any acts that they may (or may not) perform. How odd it is that your brain works the way that does. I supposed in order to justify being a bigot you have to change the discussion to rationalize your conclusions.

clover201

cantbelive22, your ignorance is staggering on so many levels. If you think that Hollywood is powerful enough to mess up the country, you are giving these people too much credit. How about the corrupt politicians or big business? How about this rediculous excuse for an administration who has, in 8 short years, taken us from a huge surplus to the largest federal debt in history, lied to lead us into an unjust war, allowed (by ignoring the warnings) the atrocity that was 9/11, and who sat on their collective a$$s and watched New Orleans get destroyed? We are mocked by every other country in the world and we deserve to be...because of people like you. You really need to get your priorities straight before you speak, because as it stands, you just look like an idiot. You probably fall asleep with a picture of G.W. Bush under your pillow. Well, sweet dreams.

Bill

Did anyone notice the glaring sentence in the article?

"Aiken holding his newborn son Parker as he declares his sexual preference in GIANT BOLDFACE LETTERS"

It is not a preference. I never made a choice. I am Gay by birth. Any of you straight people out there date the same sex before making a decision to prefer the opposite sex? I didn't think so. We are all remarkably similair and deserve the same rights. We are not choosing an alternative lifestyle, we are just living our lives as we have been created and want to show our love and commitment. I am a christian. I am Gay, and this is what God intended for me.

Jon Healey

Good catch, Bill. My bad -- "declared his homosexuality" or "came out" would have been more accurate.

Son

Prop 8 isn't about Clay Aiken. It isn't about "rights". It is about preserving the definition of "marriage" as between a man and a woman. Gay people can do what they want, and they can even enjoy many civil benefits through civil unions and the such. But that isn't marriage. Gay people should be treated with kindness and respect, like anyone. Gay people aren't the issue here nor the problem. The problem is that 4 arrogant judges in black robes sitting in their ivory tower overturned the express will of a clear majority of California citizens when they ruled by fiat and illegally legislated from the bench when they unilaterally redefined marriage. Prop 8 allows the citizens of California to say no to Judicial Activism and Judicial Tyranny. There are elements of the judiciary that are way out of control and are endangering the balance of power in our republic by getting involved in "legislating". This has got to stop. Voting yes on Prop 8 will help put those elitist judges back in their place and let them know they CANNOT arrogantly overule the will of the people in a matter as fundamental to the future of civilization as the bedrock institution of marriage.

Son

Prop 8 isn't about Clay Aiken. It isn't about "rights". It is about preserving the definition of "marriage" as between a man and a woman. Gay people can do what they want, and they can even enjoy many civil benefits through civil unions and the such. But that isn't marriage. Gay people should be treated with kindness and respect, like anyone. Gay people aren't the issue here nor the problem. The problem is that 4 arrogant judges in black robes sitting in their ivory tower overturned the express will of a clear majority of California citizens when they ruled by fiat and illegally legislated from the bench when they unilaterally redefined marriage. Prop 8 allows the citizens of California to say no to Judicial Activism and Judicial Tyranny. There are elements of the judiciary that are way out of control and are endangering the balance of power in our republic by getting involved in "legislating". This has got to stop. Voting yes on Prop 8 will help put those elitist judges back in their place and let them know they CANNOT arrogantly overule the will of the people in a matter as fundamental to the future of civilization as the bedrock institution of marriage.

Drew

Yo, Jesse and other bigots who start whining like little babies when people call them on their bigotry.

I pay the same taxes as you. If not more.

I have a fundamental constitutional right to have my marriage recognized exactly the same way as yours.

Is it OK to say that followers of religion and other fairy tale mythology are "fundamentally disordered"?

That religious belief is a "lifestyle choice" that can be legislated against?

No? OK then. Shut yer pie hole. Live and let live.

NR Davis

No. This is about rights and equality. If you have the right to marry -- under secular law, which is different from what goes on in your hate pit, er, church -- SO SHOULD I. To deny me civil marriage under secular law makes me unequal, and I WILL NOT STAND FOR IT. If you were decent, you would see that your church can do what it wants within your faith community, but for you to insist that secular law uphold what your god says is IMMORAL and UN-AMERICAN. Separate but equal is not equal. Civil union is Jim Crow. Grow up. Discriminate against me in your church, but for you to have the GALL to deny me the same thing and the same word you get via the GOVERNMENT, is hubris that goes too far. For you to demand that gay people be punished by your religous rules when they aren't part of your church is nothing short of insane and cruel, however "kind" you think you are. Keep your kindness. I DEMAND EQUALITY.

mmhurst

Son, do you equate democracy with mob rule? If something is against the law (or in this case the state constitution) then of course it is the job of the judicial branch to rule in favor of the minority. Our history in this Republic has a long practice of protecting the interests of minorities in order that they are treated fairly under our laws despite what the majority may think. In our recent past, there were cases decided during the civil rights movement where judges ruled against the majority in their respective states in order to uphold the rights of the minorities struggling for equality. You can certainly use whatever religious belief you have as your defense against gay marriage and your particular religious organization may very well follow your beliefs in refusing to recognize or perform gay marriages. This law does not challenge that practice, but merely states that it is against California’s own constitution for the state government to follow those same religious beliefs and refuse marriage equality to a certain group of people. State government and your religious organization are two separate identities which zealots sometimes seem to forget.

Taylor

The word "rights" has become too broad. Without any restriction, there are no privleges and hence, no rights. The phrase "gay rights" was coined in order to help people feel they were doing the right thing by granting other's what they inalienably were due, however this is not the case. God created us with the idea that we would have children by natural means. Otherwise, our system of society would stop working, and the human race would cease to exist. It is against God's will that we should allow people to be legally married and not be able to have children naturally- that is the whole purpose of getting married anyway. Look at yourself! There are two genders- whether you believe in evolution or creation, it's obvious that we are meant to be coupled with those of the opposite gender, in order to bring about life.

Rob Power

Regarding Paul Benedict's comment about Party A / Party B, you should realize that this less-than-romantic labeling is the fault of social conservatives. Only in the 1970s, when gay people started demanding equal rights under the law, did labels get added for Husband/Wife or Bride/Groom on marriage certificates across the country. Prior to that, most of them only had blanks for the two people getting married.

Case in point, Frida Kahlo's and Diego Rivera's 1940 marriage license, on display in the Kahlo exhibit at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, has no gender-identified labels on it anywhere whatsoever:

http://outrightusa.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=1391

If only we could make the marriage licenses look like that again (minus the field for Race, of course)...

Remzod

I am a straight, 48 year-old man living in suburbia. I like red meat, football, motorcycles and my kid. I also think discrimination is about as un-American as communism.

And speaking of un-American, when was the last time anybody tried to CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION to TAKE AWAY RIGHTS? I believe it was prohibition. That was a good move.

Prop 8 isn't about rights? That's a curious statement, since thousands of people will lose the right to marry if Prop 8 passes. And you want to "preserve" the definition of marriage from activist judges. Wasn't that the same thing they said fifty years ago when California judges said blacks and whites could get married?? Boy, those activist judges -- they have no sense of preserving history.

HOW does it affect my rights if two gay people want to commit to one another in marriage? WHY would I want to change the Constitution to prevent them from doing so? I think that if you want to enjoy a right yourself, you better be prepared to grant that same right to all Americans.

Kellie

Why does everyone talk about Prop 8 TAKING rights away. It seems that we are talking about the definition of marriage and what that means. There are no rights being taken away. What you are saying is that you would like rights added. So don't change a definition that has been around forever. Be creative, ADD those rights to domestic partnership. Once you open the interpretation of the long standing definition of marriage, you open it to ALL alternative lifestyles. Just like two people living together have domestic partnership. The definition of marriage is man and woman.....come on be creative and come up with another definition for alternative lifestyles. Those for prop 8 are not bigots, or are not hateful (those are cheap words). This is about finding a NEW solution. Does this mean that we can change the word DOG to mean cat also?

John

Do those of you who argue for "perserving the definition of marriage" realize that, a mere 200 years ago (and much more recently -- even today -- in many parts of the world), "marriage" both as a legal doctrine and a religious concept was a contract that sold a woman from one family to another? The bride was a piece of personal property that was transferred...she was the object of a financial transaction. Marriage for love was virtually nonexistent, even in early America. Marriages were arranged to provide for mutual financial or political benefit to both families.

Whether you oppose gay marriage because of bigotry, distaste, or sheer ignorance, please don't reinvent history by suggesting that we are subverting a time-honored tradition that deserves to be upheld.

Wolfgang E. B.

Kellie wrote, "Why does everyone talk about Prop 8 TAKING rights away."

Because it *is* about taking rights away. Please read the CA Supreme Court decision.

Wolfgang E. B.

Son wrote, "It isn't about "rights". It is about preserving the definition of "marriage" as between a man and a woman."

Yeah, and Perez v. Sharp wasn't about rights either. It was about "preserving" the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman of the same race. After all, that was the way things were since, oh, the beginning of time. Darn those activist judges! Don't you agree?

Taylor wrote, "It is against God's will that we should allow people to be legally married and not be able to have children naturally- that is the whole purpose of getting married anyway."

So, infertile couples and senior couples shouldn't be able to marry either, right? What about couples who choose not to have children?

All you Prop. 8 supporters need to stop and examine yourselves. Some of you claim otherwise, but your desire to prevent gays from marrying is founded on a deeper desire to keep us outside of your "world." It is a fear of "other," and fear is the source of all hate. You wish you could get rid of us. Just admit it. Own it. Then you'll understand why we call you bigots.

KJoe

I can't believe people actually make political decisions based on religious faith in this day and age. Hasn't everyone figured out that Wotan, Zeus, Baal, Mithras, Aman-Ra, Quetzelcoatl, Ahura-Mazda, Allah, Yahweh, the invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot, flying spaghetti monster, and great juju under the sea don't exist?

Was the Constitution designed with God and Marriage between a Man and Woman

"Was the Constitution designed with God and Marriage between a Man and Woman" in mind?

What is interesting to me is the Gay community is making this a Constitutional Issue.

So let's look at the Constitution:

Was the Constitution designed with GOD at the forefront and with GOD in mind? Answer YES

Was the Constitution designed with Marriage between a Man and Woman or between Same Sex Partners?

With out a doubt "Man and Woman" in mind.

So where is the rife it is plan and simple but the GAY community is trying to fool and deceive the State of California, the Good ole USA, as well and the World.

So as they say KISS "Keep it simple stupid" and get a clue people. Just like the opposition to Prop 8 First TV Ad a Latino Woman wanting to Marry a White Man. What and the Hell did this have to do with GAY marriage. That was and is the deception.

Jesse

KJoe
"I can't believe people actually make political decisions based on religious faith in this day and age"

I know you think you are progressive, but, seriously...history says you're point of view has been around since, well, the beginning of recorded history. So much for progressive, new, etc.

I seriously cannot believe people actually make political decisions in a moral vacuum in this day and age.

Denny

What do 'straight' people have against 'gay' people ?
The Supreme Court, acting accoring to its mandated role, ruled that Prop 22, previously passed by 61% of those who voted was UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Therefore, the Constitution of our dear State SHOULD allow same-sex couples the SAME civil rights as heterosexual couples.
That's EQUALITY under the law. Isn't that what we all want ?

Josh Marshall

I love the Hitler comparison---thank you for comparing the killing of innocent Jews(which Jesus & Paul were--he came to fulfill the law) to not supporting gay marriage in California I do not hate homosexuals---but I don't wish for it be mandated as okay. That is my personal right, just as flogging me for my beliefs are. I don't want homosexuality taught in schools the SAME way you don't want creationism, church history, or the role of Christianity with 45 of the signers of the Declaration of Independance--and made clear with the Resolution of the adoption official bible of the U.S on September 10th, 1782 by congress--"THAT the United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion".

I prefer to keep the sanctity of marriage intact and FIX what is broken, not change how its interpreted. AND YES--there is a natural progression there. I do not wish for society to outlaw PERSONAL behavior, but I'm tired of placating the masses to appease the minority. This IS a moral issue--whether you can bring your personal bedroom behavior into the public forum for a stamp of approval. I do not wish to make homosexuality a social norm, and allow it to be taught as normal--as it IS in massachusetts currently. I have an innate rationale that I should not support gay marriage---whether Christian or not. The bible is clear in Romans 1:24-28 (NIV)

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.


As a Christian, how could I take that any other way. Should I assume that Paul got it wrong. The Bible is consistent throughout on moral law, which includes homosexual behavior.

Josh Marshall

and will I get arrested for hate speech for saying my moral beliefs?

John Voci

To My Fellow Christians Regarding Gay Marriage
Vote NO on Proposition 8
Will they want to hear about
our Lord of Love if we don’t show it ourselves?

If marriage is such a beautiful commitment how can we as Christians, loving our neighbors, deny it to others? ’Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Mark 12:31. NIV ”Do not judge, or you too will be judged.” Matthew 7: 1 NIV These are such well known, welcoming, loving quotes to us Christians. Why do those who wish to deny Gay Marriage seem to forget them?
In Matthew 5: 31-32 Jesus said that to divorce, except in cases of unfaithfulness, is causing one to commit adultery; yet the divorce rate among Christians is higher than that among non-Christians. If marriage is so sacred why is that? Wouldn’t it be better to worry about committing adultery than whether two women or two men wish to be committed to each other in a loving covenant? Shouldn’t we as Christians work on keeping Christian marriages together rather than keeping gay ones apart? “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Jesus, Matt. 7: 3 NIV
Show me in the Bible where Jesus himself condemns homosexuality specifically. He doesn’t. He doesn’t condemn, he doesn’t deny, he doesn’t vote against. He loves. As Christians we should follow Christ. That might sound obvious but are we Christians obviously doing it? Do we love our neighbors as ourselves? Are we being kind? Are we hating our “enemies” and judging those whom we don’t understand? Ignorance can lead to fear which can be acted upon by excluding those we don’t understand with fences, or new laws. “If you love me you will obey what I command.” Jesus, John 14: 15 NIV In the Bible, Jesus Christ said an awful lot about loving others, not judging them. What specifically did he say about homosexuality? Nothing.
Remember the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery. The Pharisees, the religious leaders of their day, wanted to trip Jesus up, force Him to hate, persecute and judge. They wanted Him to deny and exclude and punish the woman by voting with them to stone her. Jesus wouldn’t vote against her; He showed her love. He told the Pharisees that any of them that were without sin of their own could cast the first vote by throwing the first stone. None of them could. Open your heart again to the message of Love that Jesus taught.
In the days Jesus lived, lepers were not allowed to live the same as non-lepers. Did Jesus judge them, or stay away from them, or call for a vote against their celebrating Love, Faithfulness, and Family? No he didn’t. He loved them. He spent time with them. He ate with them as he did in Mark 14:3. My brothers and sisters don’t get caught up in exclusionary, hateful rules and votes to deny love. Don’t become one of the Pharisees, as Jesus said to them: “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “’These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ “You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” Mark 7: 6-8 NIV Reread chapter 23 of Matthew. It is full of the woes that will come to the Pharisees. Jesus tells them in verse 23: “you have neglected the more important matters of the law-justice mercy and faithfulness.” NIV
James is one of my favorite books on the bible because it challenges me to act as a Christian not just to talk like one. James was the brother of Jesus and this was one of the first, if not the first, New Testament letters written. The introduction to the book of James in the NIV says that “James wrote this letter to teach Christians the practice of Christianity.” James has words for us in Chapter 2 verses 8-13: “If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself,’ you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers… because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!” Later in chapter 4:12 NIV, James says: “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you-who are you to judge your neighbor?”
For those of my brothers and sisters who are thinking of voting against letting gay marriage let me ask you, do you know any gays or lesbians? Do you work with any? Did you go to school with any? Did you know them as kids, when even then, they knew they were gay? Are there any in your family? Is your daughter a lesbian? Could you tell her she doesn’t have the right to get married? Is the daughter of your vice president a lesbian? Is the son of your favorite President gay? Is your favorite talk show host a lesbian? What if your best friend told you he was gay?
Being gay or lesbian is simply a part of who they are. They were born that way, just like those who are born straight. Let me ask you this my brothers and sisters in Christ: Could you, you yourself, choose to be gay? Could you just switch? One day wake up and just decide to go out and be gay? I couldn’t. I’m straight. It’s how God made me. Just as He made you. Why would someone choose to live a life that for centuries has been so persecuted, hated, judged, and discriminated against? Why would they choose this? Gay men and women are God’s children and are made that way by God. They are our neighbors and should be loved that way just as Jesus said and did. We should not discriminate, persecute, or vote against them. They should be allowed to marry and honor the covenant of Love, Faithfulness, and a Family commitment.
Now I’m not for gays and lesbians running wild out in the clubs and parties sleeping with anyone they can find, I’m also against heterosexuals doing that. And that is exactly the point. Gays and lesbians, who want to get married, want to honor and cherish each other in committed faithfulness just as Jesus wanted.
In John 3:16 Jesus says that “whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” NIV Whoever. Many gays and lesbians are fantastic Christians. They love, honor and follow Jesus with all their heart. They go to church. They read the Bible and they Praise our Lord with all their spirit. Many become ministers doing all they can to spread the good news of our kind and loving and forgiving savior. They bring in lost souls, and spread the good news as Jesus taught us to.
Gays and lesbians can make fantastic parents. They come together in love and raise their children in a house of love. If the child is straight great! If the child is gay great! They don’t judge the child for his or her sexuality they just raise him or her lovingly. They don’t try to “convert” the kid to make him or her gay; they just try to raise that child to be the best person he or she can be. Many gay and lesbian parents adopt children. They save these children for the often unloving foster system. They are following Jesus’ example: “I will not leave you as orphans.” John 14:18 NIV Again we are talking about those gays and lesbians who want to get married, who want to start a family. Many gay and lesbian couples have been faithfully together for 20 or 30 years already. Marriage is God’s covenant not ours. It’s not a religious question, or a question of morals, it’s a question of love.
“The people of this age marry and are given in marriage.” Luke 20: 34 NIV Jesus said this to the Pharisees who were asking him who shall be married to whom at the resurrection. Jesus warned them that it was more important to work on your own life and righteousness and whether you were worthy to take part in the life hereafter than to argue over titles and old laws; worrying about who will marry who.
As Christians, as ambassadors for Christ here on this Earth, as the light of this world, can we deny Love to others? Can we, in Jesus name, discriminate against two people who want to come together in commitment to honor and cherish each other? By trying to vote gays and lesbians out of the opportunity to make their partnerships holy, how are they going to be open to hearing about the love of Jesus Christ? Will they want to hear about our Lord of Love if we don’t show it ourselves?
When our words and actions are to deny and exclude, how can we preach these words: “Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30 NIV Jesus counseled us, as his followers, not to vote with the Pharisees: “But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” Matthew 23:3-4 NIV
There was a time in this country’s history when people were denied the same rights as others because of the color of their skin, this was wrong and it was changed. There was a time in this country’s history when women did not have the same rights as a man, it was wrong and it was changed. On July 4th 1776, our country’s Independence Day, the Declaration of Independence stated:”We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.” God Bless America. God Bless our American right to have the freedom to live as we choose.
My brothers and sisters, pray on this. Open your hearts to God, and the words and actions of Jesus Christ, not some politician, religious leader, or committee. What does God tell you? What do you feel?
“‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” Jesus, Mark 12: 31. NIV
Vote NO on Proposition 8.

Scripture taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION ®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. Used by permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved.

Monroe

I can remember a time not too long ago when many gays insisted that they were not interested in co-opting the word marriage; all they wanted was the right to take care of their familes, be elligible for health insurance, and be able to visit loved ones in the hospital. Most compassionate people agreed and civil unions gained wide acceptance.

On the other hand, the religious right said that civil unions were a smoke screen and the true goal was marriage. Many people dismissed their complaint as ludicrous. Everyone knew that the definition of marriage described a union between a man and a woman.

I am bringing this up only to point out that when gays insist that they won't go after religious institutions or sue people for their personal beliefs, and try to indoctrinate those in school, that their denial now rings holllow. We have seen evidence that contradicts those assertions. People have indeed been sued for their personal beliefs and school children have had pro-gay books introduced in the classroom.

It would appear that they are not content to merely live their lives in peace but seem to be on a mission to punish those who dare stand in their way.

These are some of the reasons that I am in support of Prop 8.

Robert H ******

Same Sex Marriage---If 'yes on 8' passes to SAVE marriage, what's next?

Eliminate divorce...then re-criminalize adultery?

Robert in Palm Springs, CA

Matt

Caring people can disagree and still respect each other's basic rights. There is still more that unites us than divides us. We as a society have already given legal rights to civil unions, which is the respectful thing to do, and Prop 8 would not take that away at all. But let's not re-define marriage - there are too many negative probable consequences, such as reducing free speech and religious liberty for those who believe in traditional marriage. A clear majority of Californians voted to define marriage as being between a man and a woman. I believe that that is still the case.
Matt
www.prop8withrespect.blogspot.com

Fransisco Orange

I was and still am both a Clay Aiken fan and a prop 8 supporter. He's a great singer and prop 8 is great for society.

YES ON 8!!!

Lindsay Ham

If Prop 8 doesn't pass parents could lose their right to remove their children from education programs at school that teach what parents feel is immoral. VOTE YES ON PROP 8!
www.protectmarriage.com

Kimberly

I believe that as citizens of the United States we all have the right to vote in order to express our beliefs and views. I am voting YES on prop 8 because I believe that children are better off when raised in a home with both a mother and father.

Yes on 8!!

protectmarriage.com

whatisprop8.com

Jessica

Prop 8 is not about taking rights away from homosexuals. If anything it is taking away the rights of society as a whole. By voting no for prop 8, it will become illegal to speak your beliefs if they do not support homosexuality. This is taking away our rights of free speech!

www.protectmarraige.com

Yes on prop 8!!!!!

Jessica/ Anaheim, Ca

Jessi

Regarding Lindsay Ham (posted above)
Here is a link proving the limitation of parental rights already taking place in Massachusetts. VOTE YES ON PROP 8. This father had no say on what his child was taught at school.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1815820715?bctid=1822459319

deb

Here is a proud Clay Aiken fan who is adamantly opposed to Prop 8 (and I've already cast my vote, too). You make the assumption that because Clay Aiken has a number of "middle-aged" fans, we must also be religious, rt. wing conservatives. Huh? Guess what? Not all "middle aged women" are bible thumpers. In fact, most probably aren't. We are, after all, the generation who brought you rock n'roll, Janis Joplin, the Rolling Stones, the sexual revolution, David Bowie, ....and I could go on. The marginalization of women post age 30 or so is one of my pet peeves. Next time you go to a Rolling Stones concert and see all those "middle aged" MEN there, why don't you try making the same assumptions about them that you do about women of a similar age? Please!

Cindy

Clay Aiken fan here and I do not support Prop 8.

The media has such a skewed view a Clay Aiken fan, not to mention the marginazation of women over 30. Applauds Deb.

I was at Woodstock, marched against the Vietnam War, and a life long Democrat. I enjoy all sorts of music and that includes Mr Aiken.

I'm not religious at all.

Is is funny that a middle age man can oogle cute young women and attend concerts and nothing is said, but if a women does it it is suddenly all sorts of wrong.

What is ever more disgusting is the number of times people have said to me upon hearing that I am a fan is "don't you know he is gay?" Why would that make a difference? It's not like he sings with his penis.

Homophobia is alive and well in this country. Gay or Straight any person should be given the same freedoms, and that includes marriage.

Oh by the way, I am a middle age, middle class, straight female. I just hate sterotyping in whatever form it takes.

andie

I didn't know being gay was a sexual preference. I am pretty sure we are all born with our sexual orientations wired in. As for Aiken's fans, most of us are perfectly happy for Clay because he has a child that he so dearly loves and wanted and because he is now free to be who he is without all of you gossipy types trying to force him out. All of us deserve to self define and if gay/lesbian to come out when ready. Such a sad state of affairs this media madness is. How about respecting someone's privacy and dignity?

Dan

How about we throw out what Hitler thought about things and go by what God says about it?

Homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God. Regardless of whether or not a person is ok with homosexuality doesn't mean God accepts it.
In fact, God does NOT accept homosexuality.

Clay Aiken can claim to be anything he wants. If God doesn't accept it, Clay can't make it ok in the eyes of God nor in the eyes of Christians who actually believe the words of the God they serve instead of some gay celebrity wannabe like Clay Aiken who wants to get rich on the dollars their fans so much that he lies for years to them.
One can know that homosexuality is wrong without hating the homosexual.

donna

Would you or anyone you know choose to be a homosexual..with all the gay bashing that exist in our society? I don't think so. You are either gay or straight.The Catholic church is a good example of hypocrisy.How many preists were /are pediphiles?They have the nerve to preach against homosexuality. How many young teenagers have killed themselves due to sexual orientation? How many parents can't accept thier child because they are gay?A lot of these kids either wind up using drugs or selling their bodies because the parents kicked them out of the house.Also, a some gay people married..have lovers on the side.Is this fair to either spouse? It's time we realized that sexual orientation is not a choise but something that is in our DNA .

madonna

How can homosexuality be an abomination in the eyes of God, when homosexuality is genetically determined in the womb? How can God's children be considered an abomination for something that was predetermined for them by God?

Thank you God for the beautiful souls of this world from all walks of humanity. Clay Aiken is as God made him--a beautiful soul, generous of spirit and full of love.

Vote No on Proposition 8.

Joe Wang

We don’t let brothers and sisters get married. We don’t let uncles and nieces get married. Marriage is our social institution for promoting only certain relationships, those that our society believes are morally acceptable and socially beneficial. Voting YES on Prop 8 will NOT deny equality of rights; the Domestic Partnership laws and the anti-discriminatory laws already exist. A YES vote on Prop 8 WILL tell the gay and lesbian community we will not let them (or 4 Activist Supreme Court Judges) define what the rest of us believe is morally acceptable or socially beneficial.

The gay and lesbian population represent less than 3 percent of our state’s population and few of them have or would choose to marry; the opposition of the gay and lesbian community and their supporters to Prop 8 is about their determination to change the moral beliefs of our society and gain social acceptance for a lifestyle that has for ages been regarded as immoral, just like adultery and prostitution.

Through the centuries, marriage has always been about promoting relationships that will be the most beneficial for our children. Children in stable homes with both a father and a mother married to each other will have fewer psychological, emotional and physical health problems, fewer drug and alcohol problems, and be able to take their places in and contribute to our society. Please Vote YES for Proposition 8.

 
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