The first vote on Proposition 8 ...
... comes tomorrow, when the state Supreme Court decides at its Wednesday conference whether to accept or reject a petition to throw Proposition 8 -- the initiative to ban same-sex marriage -- off the Nov. 4 ballot. Additional possibilities include calling for more briefing or even setting a date for oral argument. But time is of the essence, because ballot materials go to the printer next month.
To recap: On May 15, the Cal Supremes invalidated the state's prohibition on same-sex marriage, adopted by voters in 2000 in the form of Proposition 22. Soon thereafter, an initiative petition to go the other way, enhancing the ban by making it a constitutional amendment, qualified for the ballot and was designated Proposition 8. On June 20, victorious parties in the court's May same-sex marriage decision and other opponents of Proposition 8 asked the justices to strike the measure from the ballot.
There are two main arguments. The first is that in the wake of the court's May decision, Prop 8 would so completely change the meaning of equal protection in the state Constitution that changing it wouldn't just be an amendment, but something far more sweeping -- a revision. Revisions can't go to the voters unless they were put on the ballot by a two-thirds vote of the Legislature or by a constitutional convention.
The simpler argument is that people who signed the petition were told that same-sex marriage in California already was barred. Of course, it was true at the time they signed, but it's not now that the measure is about to go before voters.
Find information about the case before the court tomorrow here. It's entitled Bennett v. Bowen. It is near the top of the list of cases to be considered tomorrow morning in San Francisco. You'll find results posted tomorrow afternoon at he court's site here. For background on the case and links to more detailed analyses of the legal arguments, see last week's Perpetual Election update here.
Remember, there are only three days that the Court can rule on Proposition 8 prio to the election. The Petitioners and the Secretary of State have both asked for a ruling prior to the ballot going to the printers. The Court only meets in Wednesdays to rule on Petitions. On August 6th, the Court is dark. Therefore the Court must give some sort of response this month. Now observers will know that the Court moves cautiously and in this case, I do not see them changing their policy. The most judicially prudent decision would be is to deny the writ but issue a stay and grant the alternative writ. The alternative writ is to remove iProposition 8 from the November Ballot and then to hold a full blown hearing on the matter. This would give all of the parties and the Court sufficient time to weigh in on the issue without any "rush to judgment". (I cannot believe I typed that.)
Posted by: Kevin Norte | July 16, 2008 at 06:12 AM
JEFF FLINT SAID:
"I'm for change....blah blah blah...I's for bringing people together...blah blah blah...let me quote Obama some more....blah blah blah...."
JULY 15, 2008 11:10 PM
My wild guess is that Obama's gonna win big in California this November. If I'm right about that, I have to wonder what Jeff Flint, as co-campaign manager for the California Protection of Marriage initiative (the Yes on 8 side), is thinking he's gonna accomplish by posting comments like the one above.
You'd think he'd be savvy enough to avoid:
a) angering California's Obama supporters, and
b) sounding like a 12-year-old Al Jolson.
If this is the best PR that the ProtectMarriage.com coalition money can buy, it's time to put a fork in Yes on 8, because it's done.
Posted by: Chino Blanco | July 16, 2008 at 11:03 AM
Today the California Supreme Court gave birth to the "GAY MARRIAGE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX" when it denied to issue (grant) a writ to remove a measure from the November ballot that would restore the state's ban on gay marriage.
The decison was without comment leading to potential numerous initiatives at every general election and primary or at a minum, lead to more litigation if Proposition 8 passes.
The revision versus argument has been reserved for a post trial determianiton if the initiative passes because there was no ruling on the merits. The court, in a 7-0 decision, refused to hear the legal challenge, filed last month.
The petitioners' argued that the ballot measure was legally flawed and should not be put before the voters.
Proposition 8 is oficially on the ballot.
This truly is another week in what may very well become a perpetual election and marraige rights (and all civil rights) may be entering a revolving door the revolves on whims and fancies of the majority.
Posted by: Kevin Norte | July 16, 2008 at 01:34 PM
Yay! This has been a perversion of the California Constitution by four people of the Supreme Court of California and is touted as some kind of civil rights issue. Marriage is NOT a civil rights issue. You have civil unions for those who want this. But no, gay activists want the whole banana! They want to desecrate this institution. Marriage is a religious, spiritual issue that is being violated by those who cannot procreate. These are people that can never own the term, family. Families spring from marriage (organic, spiritual unions that people this earth). The voters affirmed the constitution with their previous vote. They affirmed the spirit of what the constitutional writers intended. The supreme court violated that spirit by distorting it with sentimental drivel. Equating same-sex marriage with racism? Racism is one thing. You are born into a racial group. Are you born gay? That is the acid test for civilian rights. You can choose to be gay or unchoose. A person of color doesn't have that luxury. This is NOT a civil rights issue! It is another distortion of activist gay groups that are ramming this down our throats. I am single and Hispanic and I am disgusted with the twisted logic of these people. So, YAY for Proposition 8! Bring it on. I'm ready to cast my absentee ballot vote!
Posted by: Mike observing in Morocco | July 16, 2008 at 03:23 PM
Mike in Morocco is confusing many different issues, and is just plain wrong on one, to arrive at his conclusions. Foremost is the assumption that marriage has something to do with religion (he coded it "spiritual"). It does not - it's a civil contract. Otherwise, atheists couldn't get married. He is really off-base when he states that one can choose or not choose to be gay. The science is now very clear that one cannot. It's more genetic than left-handedness - can a left-handed person "choose" to be right-handed? If that's the "acid" test, then Mike's argument that same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue is hereby dissolved.
Posted by: Byron | July 16, 2008 at 03:55 PM
Byron, it is not at all proven that homosexuality is genetic. In fact, the identical twin study supports the theory that it is something other than genetic, otherwise both twins would always be either gay or straight, and they are not. The gay community wants to push this idea because it is one of the three pillars to support the legal definition of special class status. Go search the NARTH website and look at the data from mental health professionals, you know the peer reviewed studies and not just the polictially correct newspaper stuff.
Posted by: Murray | July 28, 2008 at 04:52 PM
They should call it Proposition H8.
Posted by: Martin | July 30, 2008 at 06:36 PM
Intellectually I do not understand how a government can tell a religion who it can marry and who it can't and I do not understand how a religion can tell a government who can receive marriage benefits and who cannot. Perhaps we should divorce the two. If your religion allows you as many wives as you want, that is, I guess, not my business. But the government can give any couple domestic partner or union rights and limit to 2 adults. This way the gays and the mormons can marry in their religion and we can leave them alone
Posted by: Holy Moses | August 19, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah, civil right, total right, total freedom. No restriction, no responsibility, we can marry same sex, a monkey or our daughter. Who cares about the society, or the so-called consequence?
Where ARE we heading, anyways? Martyrdom maybe?
Posted by: kc cheng | August 21, 2008 at 05:31 PM
Mike: "Marriage is a religious, spiritual issue". Oh yeah, and Marriage is taken so seriously by hetrosexuals they throw it away to adultry and a huge divorce rate? Most people have no respect for the institution of marriage. Personally I don't want the hetrosexual title of a "marriage". Families spring from unions and morality, not from marriage. Open your narrow mind, Look around you. Take a look into gay families. A stronger union there then most hetrosexuals.
Posted by: Karen | August 21, 2008 at 10:04 PM
To all my Catholic, Mormon and Evangelical Christian friends,
In the spirit of negotiation and out of the kindness of my heart, I am prepared to make an offer to all of you who so fervently and passionately, in the name of religion, are supporting proposition 8.
This is MY proposition to you:
I would like you to allow me to have a civil union, (presently called marriage license, but you can change the name if you wish), with my partner of nine years.
I would like you to allow me to be by her bedside, in the event that she is ever in intensive care.
I would like you to allow me to decide, where we shall be buried.
I would like you to allow me to have a safe home, free from pillaging, in the event that one of us should die before the other.
I would like you to allow us to take for granted, as many of you do, all the rights that are granted to “ALL PEOPLE” in the constitution of my wonderful state of California and hopefully someday of this great nation.
Now at this point of my offer, you are all probably wondering what’s in it for you, so here goes my end of the deal.
To the Catholics: I promise I will never make fun of your over priced churches. I will not assume that all priests are pedophiles. I also promise that I will continue to buy those candies that your kids sell me, for some fund raising event or another. I will go to all your festivals, eat and drink excessively, and give you plenty of my hard-earned homo money.
To the Mormons: I promise that I will never make fun of you holy underwear “garments”. I also promise that I will never bring up those little racist secrets from your past, or the fact that DNA has disproved your book’s theories. I promise I’ll try really hard not to think that all of you have fifty wives. I also assure you that when you send your missionaries to my door, on their cute little bikes, I will continue to offer them something to drink, and I will never slam the door in their face.
To the Evangelical Christians: I promise I will never speak an unkind word again, about Tammy Faye Baker’s makeup, or her hubbies little visit to our prison system. I also promise not to laugh at the TV shows where you slap someone on the head; they fall, and are miraculously cured of what ails them. I also give you my word that if any of your leaders have encounters with prostitutes. Get busted. And cry a river of tears on TV while they ask for forgiveness. I will forgive them.
And to all of you, I would like to give you my word of honor that I will never step foot in your religious houses of worship, even though you are constantly inviting me to come in and join your gangs.
I am also willing to wear some form of identification, so you can cross the street if you see me on the sidewalk, or your children want talk to me, or I spend my money in your businesses. I don’t know just yet what I should wear? Perhaps a little black triangle will do.
As you can see, I am giving you much more in my offer than I am asking for in return.
So what do you say? Deal or no Deal?
With much love,
Lourdes Rivas
Los Angeles, California
Posted by: Lourdes Rivas | August 27, 2008 at 07:27 PM
I think it is very true what was said about heterosexual couples--that they have not taken care of the institution of marriage properly. Divorce is far too easy and people get selfish and BOOM - some simple paperwork and it's over just like that. That needs to change. However, the problem with the issue of gay marriage is that due to some who are apparently overly adamant about just simply getting their way, religious peoples' basic freedoms are being compromised. Even some of the more liberal media area willing to admit that--see the articles about "gay marriage and reiligious freedom" by NPR, NY Times, and our own LA Times to name a few. Religious people are now, in various situations, being forced to either compromise their beliefs, or get sued. That's a big reason why the Protect Marriage camp has decided to now step and do something.
Posted by: Dan | August 27, 2008 at 07:36 PM
I am a volunteer for YES on Prop 8. I have had the opportunity to contact many people regarding this proposition and have gotten many different responses. I had an experience i guess you could say just this last week. As I was calling registered voters I would ask if I could speak to the person named on the list. One particular time the gentleman said that the person I was looking for was not home at the time. Trying to make use of my time I asked the man if he was a registered voter. He said yes and also mentioned that he was the "room mate" of the male person I was trying to contact. I then continued with my script and asked if he had heard of Prop 8 and whether he would be voting yes or no. He said that he and his "room mate" were recently "married". A gay couple recently married. I thanked him for his time and that ended the call.
I thougt to myself, why would a person refer to thier spouse as a room mate? Is marriage so important to this particular person? I am married and I would never refer to my spouse as just a "room mate".
I also think of what kind on influence would a child have with two dads or two moms. If this passes and gay couples are able to adopt as married couples, those children will have a different upraising. I will say that it would be a very negative upraising.
Posted by: Ben Guerrero | September 02, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Umm, Ben? Gay couples have been able to adopt for years, through domestic partnership arrangements and other means. So the question here is whether it's better for a child being raised by a gay couple sees them as married or merely living together. Beyond that, it's worth asking whether sexual orientation matters as much as devotion.
Posted by: Jon Healey | September 02, 2008 at 11:38 AM
I would like to encourage everyone to vote yes on Proposition 8. Yes, I am a Christian man however I realize using The Bible as an argument for gay marriage to a group who does not believe The Bible will not be very effective. Instead I will just list a few statistics and leave it up to you guys to decide weather or not you think encouraging homosexuality will be healthy for this great country. I believe strongly that allowing gay marriage will eventually ruin the family dynamic in America, and we all know if the individual family is struggling the whole nation is in trouble.
Consider these statistics from 2005, I assure you they have worsened.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts
Posted by: Jed Bridges | September 09, 2008 at 09:35 AM
Ben Guerrero you are really wrong when you state "If this passes and gay couples are able to adopt as married couples, those children will have a different upraising. I will say that it would be a very negative upraising."
How do you know that a child would be in a negative upraising if a child lives in a family with two dads or two moms? As far as I know a child has more negative upraising in a straight couple family than a gay couple.
Families where a father and a mother have more issues and causes a child to be abused, and physically hurt. Most of the gay couples who adopt a child have more of a positive upraising than straight couples do.
Also why deny people the right to get married? How would you like it if straight couples couldn't be able to marry? How would you feel if straight couples couldn't visit their dying husband or wife in the hospital because you voted Yes on a Proposition that is so stupid.
Then you talk about how you have to hate and banish people of a certain sexuality because your Bible tells you so. People don't choose to be this way. You might think they have a choice of being gay or straight, but how do you know that you guys didn't choose to be straight?
If you vote YES on Prop 8 eventually you're not different then the people like Fred Phelps and his church of crazies who go around picketing at funerals of Dead U.S Troops.
I am voting NO for Prop 8!
Posted by: Brandon | September 12, 2008 at 01:14 AM
1. All gay couples can enjoy all the legal entitlements of marriage through a legal partnership. Therefore, the argument of hospital visiting rights, etc. is over. So can we please move on?
2. It's not fair to compare the best of gay couples to the worst of non-gay couples. There are good and lousy examples of both.
3. Same-sex couples cannot create a child without the help of a third person. This brings a varying degree of confusion and risk into the child's life. Can you guarantee the child will grow up happy with his/her origin? Can you guarantee that the third party will not, at some later time, reappear and want involvement? Some adult children have sought out their father, who was a donated sperm from a bank, because they needed to know him.
Posted by: Brenda | September 13, 2008 at 09:36 AM
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/sep/08091011.html By a Gay.
"Extreme vanity" he says, has been "sewn into gay culture." It "is now so mainstream in the gay community that otherwise intelligent young men are happy to be treated as sex objects on a demeaning meat rack."
Gay men, he says, are so "hardwired" towards finding casual sexual encounters, some going as far as plastic implants to enhance their appearance, that finding genuine intimacy is "practically impossible."
Vote YES on Prop. 8
Posted by: eagle | September 13, 2008 at 06:27 PM
It has become a sad, sad time in history when, the will of the people (majority) can be overruled by the will of the special interest groups with lots of money. If Prop 8 does not pass, gay couples will be able to sue religious institutions and have many of their rights taken away as a result. Take a look at what's happened in Massachusetts already. Catholic Charities had to shut down because they would not adopt kids out to gay couples. Churches have lost their tax exempt status and they would be able to have much more done to those not willing to budge on their beliefs. This country was founded on religious freedom, not sexual orientation freedom. If it doesn't pass, the schools will begin teaching the gay agenda. If that happens I will quickly take my children out of the public schools and teach them from home where they won't be indoctrinated.
Posted by: Erica | September 16, 2008 at 03:16 PM
I would first like to start off saying that I have some very good friends who are gay. Even family members. I myself have bi sexual tendencies. But I do not however believe that there should be same sex marriage. Marriage has been between a man and a woman since the beginning of time. Whether that means to you six million years or six thousand years is not the case. The fact is that it has always been like that and we as a peopole have never taken away from gays the right to marry because it has never been given to them. And we all choose what we want to do in life and we are never forced to do anything. Perhaps we are born with homosexual tendencies, perhaps not. But what I do know is that we as human beings choose to follow those tendencies. No one ever has, ever can, or ever will force us to do anything unless they are holding a gun to our heads. And as for those who believe that it does not make a difference whether a child has a father or mother in their lives. You are dead wrong. I grew up without a father and while I am not scarred for life there are many things that I missed out on and many lessons that I have yet to learn that my fellows peers have had and do know because they themselves had a father. Sorry to rant for so long but lets all act civilized and not throw out shrude and rude comments out at each other. After all we are all human beings and no one is better than the other.
Posted by: Jack | September 19, 2008 at 08:51 AM
I think that adoption in a wonderful thing. These children need parents. Some parents are better parents than others. This has very little to do with wether the parents are Homo or Hetro. I don't think that is a fantastic leap in logic for anyone. Straight people can be bad parents, so can Gay people. Both have the potential to be outstanding parents also. As for a Gay raising being negative I think that their is as much a chance of that as elsewhere. If a mother or a father figure is missing that is as unfortunate as a single mother or father situation is. I think that a child does need a male and female figure in their life but that figure does not have to be absent if both parents are of one sex. Uncles, Aunts, Close relations and friends can provide this experience.
I think to have 2 LOVING parents is the most important thing required for any healthy child.
State Marriage should not be dictated by any religious institution. I am not saying that religious institutions should perform gay marriage if it is against their ethos. But I believe they should most definantly not interfere in any such marriage performed by the state.
Studies on Identical twins and homosexuality have shown that if one twin in Gay then the other is 60% likely to be Gay also.
I believe that Homosexuality is a case of Nature. You are born gay, in as much as any heterosexual reaches an age and they find the opposite sex attractive, Homosexuals reach that stage and find the same sex attractive. That is not to say that people cannot make the choice. I can teach myself to me ambidextrous. But it does not come naturally, but it can happen. Possible through experience and nurture or even simple personal logic someone could make that choice.
I believe though that people are born one way or the other.
The roommate issue, a man referring to his husband as his roommate. His life situation could currently mean that he must be wary about telling a stranger over the phone for any number of reasons. People guard their personal business closely, especially an orientation that could lead many people to interact or percieve them differently. Any number of reasons that I'm sure this person ringing would not have any idea of as much as I have no idea.
Everyone views marriage differently.
You know what marriage is to yourself.
I know how I view it. The ultimate unification between two people in love.
I was raised on disney and love stories. I know what marriage means to me.
Be happy and secure in your own understanding of what your marriage is to you and don't fear the effects of someone else marriage.
If you're married and someone else gets married it does not change your marriage. You know why you got married. Why feel like it is threatened?
Love is a beautiful thing. It should be celebrated, not contained.
Posted by: Jenn Byrne | September 22, 2008 at 09:51 AM
It is intense to ME how gay and lesbian people are fighting to gain rights and respect. Fighting to be with the one they LOVE. While the people who already have those rights and respect (just under the heterosexual title alone) are taking those rights for granted and spending all of this time and money on an attemp to banish those rights for "other" people, because believe it or not we are ALL people. I am a lesbian with a STRAIGHT family, yes my parents are straight (heterosexual), I am the first of four girls. I am extremely lucky to be accepted and loved for WHO I AM by my FAMILY and PARENTS. My point here is this, and I am not insinuating anything, but for the people who are voting yes on proposition 8 (I can't even believe that fellow humans are honestly going to be voting on wheather or not I can wed) imagine that? You are SO in love with someONE and you are ready to make the commitment and spend the rest of your lives together (anyone, gay or straight can understand this feeling) and then you have to turn to everyone else in the state and ask "is this ok with you guys?" Wow. But I guess I am unable to fathom a great deal of what this world has come to. As you can tell, I am extremely passionate about this. This is my life, this is WHO I AM. So, make your decision on proposition 8, vote yes, then if/when (there are a lot of gay people in this world, being born everyday) your child comes to you and tells you who they are, remember you have already made the decision for them. Be a "good" parent. Make sure to raise your child in a "healthy" home, teach them to be "proud" of who they are, love them UNCONDITIONALLY, fight for your rights and definition of a parent, a family, a marriage.
Posted by: ashlie | September 22, 2008 at 05:55 PM
I FOR ONE WILL PRAY THAT GOD'S WILL BE DONE. HE IS THE CREATOR WE ARE HIS CREATURES. HE IS THE POWERFUL ONE AND NOTHING THAT IS CONTRARY TO HIS WISHES WILL COME TO PASS. MAY GOD'S LOVE AMD WISDOM BE WITH US ALL.
Posted by: Linda | September 23, 2008 at 04:06 PM
Is this a civil rights battle or a moral battle or maybe just a political game? Gay couples already have the same rights as married couples under the Domestic partnership Acts. For a look at all of these rights go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California .
It is all about the title of marriage -- which was originally created by religion. Government saw value in marriage (it produced the next generation of citizens) and wisely invested in it. The big repercussions dealing with Prop 8 have to do with the separation of church and state and how those lines will remain.
Posted by: Amy | September 24, 2008 at 03:05 PM
An institution (such as education or marriage) that is separate but equal is inherently unequal. Marriage is a civil right and it is a human right. Prop 8 isn't trying to separate church and state, it is trying to write the Bible into the California Constitution.
Please understand, homosexuality is not a choice. If it were one (like religion or political party), then perhaps there would be more protections allowing us to marry.
Isn't it just a little bit silly that proponents of Prop 8 will allow convicted murderers and rapists to get married...in prison even...yet focus their attention/attacks/hatred on law-abiding gays?
Stop pretending that your fight for Prop 8 is a fight to protect families. Understand that the struggle for gay marriage is so that gays too can develop a family, not destroy yours. Recognize your homophobia and ignorance for what it is. Stop trying to take away my rights, it's so un-American of you. Vote NO on Prop h8.
Posted by: KlemChowder | September 24, 2008 at 06:01 PM