Supreme Court gives immigrants a little leeway

This liberal court is pushing its one agenda and pushing ILLEGAL - ALIENS down Americas throat.

I cant be too shocked this is California the socialist strong hold of the west., but to be so openly against the rule of LAW is disgusting!

These are criminals and needed to be treated as such with deportation and fine against the companies that hired them.

The judges need to step down as they are not following the law but their own personal opinions.

I cant wait for their decision to be over turned by a bigger court and the AMERICAN voter!

Some of the people I see commenting, hear speaking and who take issue with illegal immigrants and immigration are so blatantly biased its disgusting. To make it worse, they choose to be so by ignoring facts and evidence that directly contradicts just about EVERYTHING they say.

One person commented "Where have all the brilliant minds gone?", the minds of our politicians can only be as sharp as the sharpest mind in the pool from which we select, and people, the pool is shallow. Speaking of which, that is ONE reason immigrants are and have ALWAYS been so important to this country... Human Capital. Many are eager to work or learn and have a determination and dedication we wish we could instill in OUR children.

The fact is, EVERYONE seems to group all immigrants into the same category and tout this "criminal offense" as the reason they are so bad. Almost all of you have at some point committed a crime, whether on purpose or inadvertently. Have you lied on your taxes lately? Even about a dollar here or there? YOU are guilty of a crime! A FEDERAL offense actually. And unless the immigrant has forged documents, their crime s less than yours. Moving along, there are many immigrants who are here, not because they intended to commit a crime, but they were brought here by parents who simply wanted better lives for their children, now, all grown up, these children have become targets of your insensitive, uneducated attacks. Third, not all illegal immigrants are MEXICANS! Grow up people, look at the real world. The people who are here from Africa, China, Venezuela, even Haiti, those who are here to escape persecution. MOST of them are better citizens than you. They go to work, they pay taxes, they stay out of trouble for fear of being caught... Their only concern is being able to take care of their family.

The truth is, many immigrants are well educated and actually give up sometimes jobs and positions in society way above the ones they are forced into here. Why? They truly understand that the freedoms we have in America are worth sacrifice. YOU feel entitled and have no idea what it means to sacrifice something for a freedom. You complain that your government is violating rights in the name of national security... You have no idea.

And NO, the REAL facts state that these people actually AVOID doctors and hospitals unless they have LIFE THREATENING injuries or ailments. They ARE NOT a stress on our health system.

Lastly, lets not forget that a large majority of you, your ancestors came here illegally. Due to different laws and times, they were allowed to assimilate. They BECAME Americans and were so appreciative they became true patriots. If afforded the same privilege, many of these immigrants would prove how much they love and are loyal to this country.

And those of you who THINK your long lineage entitles you to be here, unless you are a true native American, YOUR ancestors committed crimes that we now bomb and hang people for committing. GENOCIDE and SLAVERY. Get over yourselves.

Through all this, I do not think we should allow EVERY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT to stay here, but there needs to be more discussion of who could be and is a benefit to this country and who is not. Of course, those who commit crimes beyond overstaying their Visa should be punished, imprisoned, fined or deported. But consider the Jamaican woman that takes care of your grandmother in the nursing home, or your European Au Pair. Consider the child who never knew another home. The 18 year old honor student who just wants to attend college and be a doctor, lawyer, nurse or engineer. THEY DON'T deserve to be labeled criminals.

I welcome corrections, intellectual responses or debate and questions.

Hernandez wrote:

"The judges need to step down as they are not following the law but their own personal opinions.

I cant wait for their decision to be over turned by a bigger court and the AMERICAN voter!"

Hey Hernandez! There IS NO bigger court than the Supreme Court! LOL What a moron!

*** "KENNEDY, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which STEVENS, SOUTER, GINSBURG, and BREYER, JJ., joined. SCALIA, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which ROBERTS, C. J., and THOMAS, J., joined. ALITO, J.,filed a dissenting opinion." ***

Hmmm...I guessed perfectly how they aligned before I even saw the opinion. Ginsburg especially has made it quite clear she no longer respects the limits placed on her powers by the Constitution itself. So why should we respect her decision?

World's toughest immigration rules yet has the largest illegal population. World's biggest economy yet people shoot for $10. World's best justice system yet has the largest prison population. World's most free country yet emails watched over by government and gays cannot marry. World's best technology and brains yet cannot control a simple fire or tornado. World's best health system yet largest number of heart and diabetes patients. Watch American televison drug ADS and one can conclude it is a land of sick people. And finally who is mating whom and who is whose kid ? Nobody knows. Disintegrating families and Americans need special days like Mother's day to thank their moms !!! A bizarre, funny and perverted country.

UPDATED:rac•ism (rā'sĭz'əm), n.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

ig•no•rant (ˈig-n(ə-)rənt), adj
lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified

Bill, I don't know how me speaking of how one should consider others and their circumstance regardless of race or origin makes me racist, or how me making statements based on research, facts and history and THEN welcoming correction or criticism makes me ignorant, but, I digress.

***Current immigration - but Illegal immigration especially - is actually decreasing average human capital in the USA. Google "NAEP" scores to get a look at how California now fares compared to the rest of the country. It's down near Mississippi.***
***The children and even grandchildren of illegal immigrants have much higher dropout rates and higher crime rates than the average population of the USA, too. Google "Heather Mac Donald" + "The Myth of Hispanic Family Values" for more on that.***
This is exactly what I referenced when I spoke of the assumption that ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE MEXICAN, or even HISPANIC. California is NOT the only state affected by immigration first off, and even then, the Majority of the immigrants in California, ARE Hispanic, hence, yes, Hispanics and especially Mexicans experience high dropout rates etc... That does not mean ALL IMMIGRANTS, legal or illegal are delinquent. There are many other races of immigrants who enter this country who do not suffer the same fate as their Hispanic counterparts. According to Ms. Mac Donald "This out-of-wedlock teen-birth rate is three times that of white teens, and significantly more than that of blacks as well."
Just so you know, the studies group Caribbean, and African immigrants into the "black" population.

***Perhaps we've all committed crimes, but is tolerating and rewarding lawbreaking the best way to ENCOURAGE respect for the law?***
We don't tolerate and/or reward anyone’s crimes. My main concern is immigrants that have families here, children born here... It is not fair to punish a CHILD for things they may not even understand, just as it’s not ok to sentence a mentally incapacitated person to death. And by your logic, since you are so concerned with upholding the law (doubtful), we should be after every person who lies about a dollar on their tax report. I'm sure the money adds up.

***I've lost all repsect for it since I started noticing how rich businessmen get away with employing illegals - because they're rich and influential.***
I won't comment much on the issue of business people, THEY are part of the problem unrelated to the immigrants themselves other than being exploiters of individuals who will jump at ANY opportunity for work.

***As for their crime being less than mine? If they have a single child in public school that alone costs their state roughly $8,000 annually, money their meager taxes never compensates for.***
The children in public schools you talk about, MOST of them ARE citizens of this country by birth and CANNOT be deported. THEY WILL pay taxes and ARE ENTITLED to public schooling.

***Plus millions of illegals work off the books and don't bother filing tax returns at all.***
Moot point. Millions of Citizens and LEGAL immigrants also work off the books. Bartenders, Bar backs and dishwashers (who are not all immigrants or illegal), waiters... the problem here is not the immigrants but a capitalistic greed driven society. If it wasn't immigrants it'd be someone else, it'd be blacks... it was at one point actually. Maybe we should deport them all too, after all, they mainly came here as slaves (immigrants), illegally, and were largely uneducated and were a drain on infrastructure no? hmm...

***Their parents managed to accomodate adjusting to a strange foreign country (the USA). I'm sure their children will manage to adjust to their native land just fine, especially since many of them already speak the native language.***
Yes, their parents adjusted, they made a choice to do so. Children of immigrants born here know nothing of their "native land" in reality. By definition, the USA IS their native land and English their native language. Additionally, MANY immigrants DON'T speak or are not proficient in their parents' native language.

***"Uneducated attacks"? I've got data behind my "attacks." How 'bout you?***
"DATA" comes in many forms and is usually skewed by those taking it as rarely does anyone collect data to prove themselves wrong. Most data is collected with the purpose of proving a point. I could find lots of data to support an argument that women are inferior to men, doesn't make it true.

***Persecution is seldom caused by one person. It's caused by interactions between two or more people. It takes two to tango, as they say. These people are often as responsible for their alleged persecution as the people who perescuted them. Besides, by allowing them into our country we're only facilitating the persecutors by making it easier for them to get rid of people they don't like.***
This one, well you should burn for this one. Are you DAFT!? Women who suffer at the hands of men who think its OK to perform acts of genitalia mutilation, institutionalized degradation and abuse...they are "as responsible for their ALLEGED persecution as the people who persecute them" Africans being killed just for being part of a certain tribe or group, being hunted and killed like animals... they wanted to "tango". Facilitating the persecutors? yes, lets send the ones who happen to escape, like very few do, back home to die, shall we? Ugh...

***How the hell do you know what kind of citizen I am??? How dare you accuse people you don't even know of such a thing. Better citizens than me WHY?***
You sir are correct, I don't, and it is wrong of me to assume. By the same right, many immigrants are model citizens aside from their initial lawbreaking whether entering or staying illegally. Don't forget that MANY immigrants also arrive here, not by crossing the border, but by legally immigrating and then OVERSTAYING valid visa limitations.

***Sacrifice for what? And how? Are we expecting them to join the military? Are they paying higher taxes than me?***
***If increasing patriotism is your true goal (doubtful), then answer me this: why are Americans today less likely to join the military today than we were 20 years ago?...in the mid-80s we had 2.2 million men and women...Today (and even before 9/11) we were struggling to keep 1.5 million...People won't die for a country that isn't theirs, and our immigration policies, designed to enrich big business and cheapen the price of labor, mean that people more than ever don't fee any great love for "their country."***
***Sorry, dufus, but the people who come here illegally for the most part aren't sacrificing squat. They're coming here knowing full well that their material well-being will increase. The only question is, "Will it increase five-fold or ten-fold?"***
First off, you ignored the part where I said "The truth is, many immigrants are well educated and actually give up sometimes jobs and positions in society way above the ones they are forced into here." There are Cuban DOCTORS who come here and end up as dishwashers, Indian Tech specialists who now work in low paying low prospect jobs from cab drivers to grocery store clerks... the list continues. People leave lives in which they were well off economically in exchange for political and social freedoms we take for granted. Their material well being in some cases actually decreases.
Second, According to data from the Department of Defense, more than 65,000 immigrants (non-US citizens and naturalized citizens) were serving on active duty in the US Armed Forces as of February 2008. Since September 2001, US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has naturalized more than 37,250 foreign-born members of the US Armed Forces and granted posthumous citizenship to 111 service members. (The 2005 numbers reflected 35,000 and about 8,000 joining each year.)

The current presence of immigrants in the military has a number of historical precedents. According to USCIS, the foreign born composed half of all military recruits by the 1840s and 20 percent of the 1.5 million service members in the Union Army during the Civil War. http://www.migrationinformation.org/USfocus/display.cfm?id=683
ALL IMMIGRANTS, legal or not are REQUIRED to register for selective service when they turn 18. They are subject to the draft like everyone else. Additionally, even if they skip out on registration, like many citizens also do... They have NO prospect of legalization unless they are registered. Immigrants pay taxes on earnings just like everyone else as long as their employers report it. Additionally, many undocumented immigrants pay taxes EVEN when they are using fake social security numbers, something not accounted for in the calculations of their contributions because many of these numbers are of deceased or other people. These earnings are hence not credited to the immigrant themselves and they receive no returns. Also, many immigrants can and do receive ITINs tax ID numbers with which they can file their taxes with the IRS. They do so knowing that if they intend to legalize, they will be required to pay these taxes plus IRS and other fines anyway.
...dufus? really? how old are you?

***What rights are being violated - their right to live in a country that isn't theirs? Do I have reciprocal rights to live in their country illegally, too? No, of course not. China would kick me out in a Shanghai minute.***
Since reading a sentence and taking it in context is difficult, let me help you. I was referring to the fact that the right violations that US residents complain about are minute compared to the ones that some immigrants suffer at home. YOU CAN'T have a "reciprocal RIGHT" to do something that is ILLEGAL... do I need to further answer that? But actually, most countries, especially the ones we see most of our immigrants from are quite lax with their immigration policy, especially when it comes to US citizens. For the most part, all you'd have to do is register... wanna go live in Haiti, Jamaica, or the Congo? Good riddance. Hope you're not gay... unlike us here, you can get chopped up or shot in your sleep for someone even suspecting you are a homosexual.

***Then why are so many border town hospitals going belly up? Why are hospitals all over the country begging the government to reimbiurse them for treatment for illegals?***
Do some more reading, "A survey conducted by the UCLA Center for Health Policy Research suggests that uninsured legal immigrants are "the biggest drain on hospitals," not uninsured illegal immigrants."
533 undocumented Latino immigrants living in Los Angeles and Fresno Counties (California) were interviewed in 1996-1997. "A companion study of undocumented Latinos in Texas … was conducted in El Paso and Houston in 1996" (pg. 3).

Findings:
1. Undocumented Latinos immigrate to the U.S. to find work. "One percent or fewer of the undocumented Latinos in each site" stated that they entered the U.S. to obtain social services (pg. 6).
2. The government programs undocumented Latinos most use are:
a). Public school enrollment and free or reduced price lunches (many children are U.S. citizens)
b). Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC)
c). Medicaid (primarily for "non-emergency pregnancy related care and emergency care") (pg. 7).
d). Food stamps (for U.S. born children - undocumented immigrants are ineligible to receive food stamps).

TO RECAP- Public assistance is NOT available to illegals, and most of the money spent on caring for "illegals" is actually used for American born children or expecting mothers to ensure the health of their American born children.
Again, many illegals avoid hospitals,
"They may visit a clinic or hospital if they are severely ill. But for many undocumented immigrants, much of their health care is provided by a parallel system of spiritual healers, home remedies and self-medication.

Stories abound here of people who died — of cancer, diabetes, even gangrene — because they did not make it to an emergency room until it was too late. Public health officials also worry that the lack of access to conventional care may contribute to the spread of communicable diseases. They warn that the rampant use of antibiotics, often without medical direction, may speed the development of resistant bacterial strains...Immigrants interviewed amid the vineyards of Madera and the cantaloupe fields of Mendota said they had faced numerous obstacles to pursuing conventional medical care. Above all, they said, was cost, but other factors included fear of deportation, long waits for treatment in medically underserved areas, and barriers of culture and language...
There is no firm projection of the medical costs incurred by the estimated 11.1 million illegal immigrants in the United States, a fourth of whom reside in California. A RAND Corporation study pegged the cost in 2000 at $6.4 billion, including $1.1 billion from public sources. It found the share of medical costs attributable to illegal immigrants was half as large as expected for their share of the population. Health demographers estimate that half to two-thirds of California’s illegal immigrants are uninsured. Women may receive occasional check-ups because they qualify for prenatal and obstetrical care under the state’s Medicaid program. But RAND found that half of undocumented men had not seen a doctor in the previous year, compared to 25 percent of men born in the United States; one in six undocumented men had never seen a doctor.

Studies also find that newcomers are only half as likely as natives to use emergency rooms, which are required to treat patients regardless of immigration status. The California Hospital Association estimates that 10 percent of the state’s $9.7 billion in uncompensated care last year was for illegal immigrants, said Jan Emerson, an association spokeswoman.

“A lot of people assume the emergency room overcrowding problem is due to undocumented immigrants,” she said. “That’s not what we see. They show up when they truly need emergency care.”

Jurley Cortez, 20, an undocumented immigrant, has not been to an emergency room, doctor or dentist in her nine years in the United States, except for the perfunctory physical her school required for athletics. Now a high school graduate, she picks tomatoes and cantaloupe near Mendota.

Three years ago, when she injured a knee in the fields, her mother could not afford a doctor and took her to a sobadora. After several $20 treatments of ointment and massage, the swelling subsided. “It still hurts when it’s cold,” Ms. Cortez said. “I just take Tylenol or Advil.”"
---Source: New York Times
Author: Kevin Sack
Date: May 10, 2008---

***Oh, the "genocide" thing. I kinda suspected you were an ignorant troll, but I wasn't really sure until now.***
HaHa. I ask, how many Native Americans and others were slaughtered in the name of manifest destiny?

***Where are we gunna get the bureaucracy large enough to sort through 15 million people and decide who's worthy of staying and who is not? What about the other 15 million people who will cross over as soon as they find out we're handing out citizensip like candy? Who's gunna validate all their documents? We don't even know that these people are who they say they are.***
Where to start... according to multiple predictions, it would cost our government somewhere between either $41 billion per year (upward of 200 billion dollars over 5 years) after assuming that 2 million...would leave on their own–a pretty large assumption or more recently, "During a hearing with Julie L. Myers, chief of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, she asked, “Could you give us some idea of what the cost of trying to locate, detain and deport all of the 12 million people who are here illegally would be?”
Lo and behold, an answer shot back with ease: “Our agency has estimated that it would cost at least $94 billion.”"
You talked about how much it costs per year for 1 illegal immigrant's high school education... it costs $97 dollars a day to detain an immigrant, multiply that by the average 32 day detainment period, the by over 12million. Transportation alone is about $1000.00 per person, that's about $4000 right there. Now consider you'd be detaining whole families, then add the administrative costs, the cost of manpower, the additional strain on law enforcement officers and other agents, incidentals etc... You think we have the bureaucracy for THAT? No. it would actually be wiser to weigh the threat and disadvantages of certain immigrants and deport based on a systematic agenda to remove those who are detrimental (ones who are already in jail, have been convicted of crimes etc..) first, then shut down the borders to prevent additional immigrants from jumping. From there we can use information and verification systems already in place to remove immigrants as they present themselves as threats or as we find them. We don't have to give away citizenship to anyone, but allowing them to work legally, receive identification and other benefits without fear of immediate deportation or punishment so that we may verify their status etc... Provides us a safer and better USA. If they can legally and under documentation work, we can track them. If they have IDs, we can track them. Then, we can take a little more time to find out EXACTLY who they are and what their circumstance. In the mean time, they pay taxes etc and are NOT a drain on our economy. It will also prevent human rights violations, and wrongful detainment. We need to stop driving them further underground and SHUT DOWN THE BORDERS!!! That's a solution. The truth is, they are here now, and it is not feasible to send them ALL "home". Additionally, punishing innocent children or those who were brought here as children by forcing their families and often them into an unfamiliar "homeland" is as bad as me punishing a white American on the street because their ancestors may have had slaves, or killed a Native American or anybody for that matter. Or an African because THEIR ancestors helped in the slave trade, or a German because his Grand Father was a Nazi. Or closer to the heart, me punishing your children for your ignorance. I try to be open minded and objective, but the name calling and people taking stances on things without full knowledge is ridiculous. I encourage EVERYONE to look at ALL or AS MANY of the FACTS from AS MANY SOURCES as possible BEFORE making judgments. I DON'T have all the answers or facts and neither does Bill.

Again, I welcome corrections and comments. The whole point is for us all to learn and have intellectual exchanges of opinions and information.

*** "According to data from the Department of Defense, more than 65,000 immigrants (non-US citizens and naturalized citizens) were serving on active duty in the US Armed Forces as of February 2008. Since September 2001, US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has naturalized more than 37,250 foreign-born members of the US Armed Forces and granted posthumous citizenship to 111 service members." ***

Immigrants comprise over 12% of the total US population (12% of 1.5 million would be 180,000 - meaning they're barely 1/3rd their proportion of the population). If there are only 65,000 immigrants in the military then they are underrepresented.

But more importantly, as I pointed out, open borders and the message it sends to potential citizen recruits - "This country is not yours - a person from China or Mexico has as much right to live here as you" - is that you are no longer volunteering to serve YOUR country.

**** Where to start... according to multiple predictions, it would cost our government somewhere between either $41 billion per year (upward of 200 billion dollars over 5 years) after assuming that 2 million...would leave on their own–a pretty large assumption or more recently, "During a hearing with Julie L. Myers, chief of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, she asked, “Could you give us some idea of what the cost of trying to locate, detain and deport all of the 12 million people who are here illegally would be?” Lo and behold, an answer shot back with ease: “Our agency has estimated that it would cost at least $94 billion.”" ****

A) Myers is an (unqualified) appointee of an admininstration that does NOT want immigration enforcement. Your answer is surprising and funny coming from someone who probably doesn't trust the Bush Administration an any other matter.

B) Google "Operation W-tback" (replace the dash with an "e"). It was the Eisenhower Administrations very effective (and cost effective) effort to remove hundreds of thousands of illegals.

C) The first line of enforcement is fining businesses who hire illegals. If the government collects fines from businesses who employ illegals the enforcement measures will largely pay for themselves. Not to mention the children of illegals who will no longer be filling up the schools.

Like I said above, all you're doing is screaming "No, No, No" to every solution we suggest. It's you guys who are providing the same old failed policies.

Try enforcement, nationwide, just for a year or so. Then if it doesn't work you can say so. But the reason open borders nuts don't want it to even be tried is because you all know IT WILL WORK.

*** "We could have 250000 ICE agents. If each agent caught one Illegal a week in a year that would be about a million a month or about 12 million a year." ***

Good point about WW2, Phil. Except that we don't need 250,000 ICE agents - we already have about 1 million National Guard troops. Calling them up to help enforce immigration laws is perfectly legal (and Bush has already done so, to a VERY limited extent).

Name 1 community that has benefitted by this endless flood of illegal immigrants.

I have lived in California for my entire life, and I have only seen cities and neighborhoods suffer when these people arrive.

Having grown up in Fontana California from 85 through 03, no one can convince me that Fontana is a better place now than it was in 1985. The flood of illegal immigrants completely destroyed the community.

LA is worse!!! Wake up people, they are destroying our culture, our language, and our quality of life.