News flash: Zune no iPod
Well, duh. Once again, Apple fanboy Wall Street Journal columnist Walt Mossberg and colleague Katherine Boehret reviewed an MP3 player by comparing it exclusively to Apple's iPods. That makes sense on one level -- the iPod is the market leader by an overwhelming margin. But it's also a product incapable of supporting subscription music services, so if you happen to want that option, the iPod isn't worth considering. Given that the Zune was designed to work with a subscription service -- Microsoft's -- the iPod can't be used as the sole measuring stick.
Let's be clear. If all you want to do is play songs you've bought or stolen, the iPod-iTunes combo remains the gold standard. But if you want access to a huge library of music on demand, especially new releases, you have to look at something like the Zune and Microsoft's Zune Pass service. Alas, Mossberg and Boehret's review of the new Zunes offers no insight at all into how the devices work with the Zune Pass, and how that stacks up against device-service combinations offered by Rhapsody, Napster or the other subscriptions. Here's all they had to say on the subject:
We each had Zune Pass accounts, which work like subscriptions. If the Zune account stops, all content acquired during the user’s subscription is lost.
Again, I say, "Duh." Judging from past columns, Mossberg dislikes subscriptions and doesn't see value there. But a sizable contingent of music fans does. If you like to hear lots of new or unfamiliar music but don't want to spend several hundred dollars on CDs or downloads, it makes sense to buy access to music through a service. If you're content to listen to what you already have, or if you're happy to download songs without paying for them, spending $10 to $15 a month on a service isn't the way to go.
Here's what I wish Mossberg and Boehret had discussed, instead of pointing out all the ways the Zune isn't an iPod:
- How reliably do the Zune and Zune Pass handle subscription downloads? Portability has been a sore spot for other subscription services, and if the Zune can provide rock-solid synching, that would be a huge plus.
- Can a Zune sync with more than one computer?
- Microsoft has started offering MP3s at the Zune Marketplace, but those aren't available for downloading through the Zune Pass. Does that mean subscribers can't listen to those tracks (and there are tens of thousands of them) without buying them?
- Is there a way to load the Zune automatically with subscription downloads, based on your music preferences? Rhapsody and Yahoo offer this feature, and it kills.
- Will the Zune work with competing subscription services?
- Can you load the Zune directly with subscription music, without having to download the tracks onto your PC?
Having raised those questions, I'll try to answer them in a later post. Maybe my curiosity is shared by only a minority of music fans, but judging by Rhapsody and Napster's numbers, there are millions of them.
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Sorry, but Mossberg's angle is perfectly valid. The iPod long ago went from being an MP3 player to being iconic, with its product name now the generic word for an MP3 player (just as a "xerox" is for a photocopy or a "Tivo"" for a DVR). The average reader probably knows the iPod at some level and would therefore want to know why he or she should buy the Zune instead of the iPod.
The story goes on to laud the Zune for some technical featues unavailable on the iPod, as well as for improving upon what was a dreadful first generation model. While it is true that the article didn't touch upon subscription service, clearly a subject dear to your heart, it did cover the Zune models fairly comprehensively, and make the comparisons to the Apple players to provide a context most readers could appreciate.
Finally, your last question was apparently answered in Mossberg's review: "[The iPod Touch's] Wi-Fi allows you to browse the Web, watch YouTube videos and even buy music without a PC — none of which is possible on a Zune ", which leads me to believe that wireless downloading of any music from a source other than another Zune isn't possible.
Posted by: George Kaplan | November 15, 2007 at 12:12 PM
finally, someone telling the truth about mossberg!!! Mossberg is not only an Apple lover who loves to bash Microsoft, but the irony is that he is a dinosaur reviewing things that are modern and hip.
Posted by: scott | November 15, 2007 at 12:53 PM
First, let's clarify some things...
Microsoft was so late to the PMP game that they have to continue to use questionable business practices--much like the browser wars that they engineered and won by deceptive business practices.
MS has been pushing their proprietary WMA format to the masses ever since iPod became popular. Now the subscription services that you tout (and obviously support) are all closed and (surprise!) not Macintosh compatible. MS has probably made sweetheart deals with these companies as long as they make sure their services don't support anything Apple.
The flipside: Apple offers many choices on how to handle your own music (and the music you purchase)--MS doesn't, plain and simple. Apple offers WAV, AAC, MP3, AIFF, and a lossless format--all are far superior choices to what MS offers.
Also, let's not try to bash other reviewers because they speak the truth, ok? Subscription services are flawed compared to owning the music--the public has spoken with their wallets on this. If that was not true, the iTunes Store would be a ghost town instead of a multi-million dollar profit generator.
You speak of getting a better value from subscription-based services because you can enjoy newer music. Given the low quality garbage that passes for music right now, OF COURSE the labels are going to be shoveling this stuff into these services because they can't get full price for it in a store. The iTS not only offers new music like these services, they also offer indie labels with some great artists that the all knowing labels passed on--not to mention classic stuff that has languished in the out of print list for far too long.
So to recap...
Microsoft: closed, proprietary, poor design, worse execution, profits are all that matters, not the customer
Apple: open, choice, clean design and execution--keeping the customer's wants toward the top of their list
Posted by: Bob | November 15, 2007 at 01:25 PM
How about podcasts? Will the Zune support them out of the box without a bunch of finagling by the user? A search for "podcast" on the Zune website yields zero results.
I guess that answers my question.
Posted by: Aaron Ginn | November 15, 2007 at 01:29 PM
He also can't seem to tell the difference between 'respectfully' and 'respectively.'
Posted by: Anonymous Coward | November 15, 2007 at 01:38 PM
> Judging from past columns, Mossberg dislikes subscriptions and doesn't see value there.
Well, not judging by this column!
http://solution.allthingsd.com/20060614/gremlin-ipod-challenge/
Over the years, I've had a few conversations with Walt on the subject of subscriptions, all pretty positive. In fact, his enthusiasm for Music Gremlin (when he showed me an advance or prototype in February of 2006) won me over to the very concept of music subscription services!
Posted by: Another perspective | November 15, 2007 at 01:48 PM
Zune Pass is one option, otherwise you can just buy your songs like normal such as in ITunes. As I see it, atleast Zune offers something like Zune Pass where Apple doesnt offer anything.
Posted by: Alex | November 15, 2007 at 01:59 PM
So what you're saying is that Mossberg should compare MP3 players to the iPod and the Zune? What about everyone else's? What if I only want to spend 10 bucks? Does the 10 dollar player have decent music playback? Cry Cry Cry.
You're correct Mossberg does have a narrow scope. He should compare the players to all the choices consumers really have: the iPod Classic, iPod Shuffle, iPod Nano, and iPod touch...should we tack on the iPhone too?
Posted by: Vinnie | November 15, 2007 at 02:36 PM
This conversation is almost entirely irrelevant. In terms of its feature set, the iPod Classic is still a little ahead of the Zune. In addition, it's not true that the iPod does not support subscription services. I have been a subscriber to eMusic since before the iPod and still download their music to iTunes and my iPod. But the big kicker here is that, with the iPod Touch, Apple is already in transition to an entirely new generation of player. Their flooding the market with the Touch will bring down the cost of flash memory enabling them to marker larger capacity players at prices competitive with the Zune. It's going to take Microsoft another three to four years to catch up to Apple who by that time will have marketed whatever wonderful gadget that they now have in their pipeline and that we just know nothing about.
Posted by: biggar | November 15, 2007 at 06:08 PM
eMusic isn't a subscription music service in the sense of providing unlimited tracks for a flat fee. It's a bulk buying service that provides tracks at a discount to people who pay $10 or more per month. There's a big difference, and I get the impression that the distinction is lost on most of the iPod defenders here. Yes, the majority of music fans today like to buy songs, not buy access to them. It's a different business model and a different way of being entertained. But don't dismiss it just because it doesn't dominate the market -- ask the average Rhapsody customer how he or she feels about the service, you'll get a better picture of the appeal. Again, the point here wasn't to say the Zune trumps the iPod, it was to say you can't review the Zune without considering how well it delivers on subscription music services, which is something iPods just don't do. At all.
Posted by: Jon Healey | November 15, 2007 at 06:22 PM
> How about podcasts? Will the Zune support them out of the box without a bunch of finagling by the user?
Podcasts are supported out-of-the-box:
http://www.zune.net/en-us/support/usersguide/podcasts/default.htm
Posted by: b.03 | November 15, 2007 at 08:47 PM
I really feel that a respectable reviewer unlike MOssberg should not only compare current offerings (ipoD vs Zune) but should also evaluate the gadget as objectively as possible without snide remarks. I still have questions about the vista media center sync with Zune, is the Zune easy to use and does it play music well and lets me find what i want quickly. I don;t need a web browser a calendar or contacts and the price point of ipod touch is just plain different. BTW everytime you read something by MOssberg regarding a question about a PC he always goes back to say that you should instead go and buy apple products, talk about drinking the kool-aid, reality distorsion field.
Posted by: Ed | November 15, 2007 at 10:15 PM
The Zune is a wonderful device. Although yes it has a brick exterior i rather have that then a flimsy aluminum ipod. I've dropped my zune to many to times to stop and think. I know for sure if i had an ipod it would have broken by now. Also with the awesome firmware updates the ipod is stuck in one place. I got the zune when it first came out and the new design they hav for the newest zune still carried over to my zune. Unlike some ancient friends of mine that have the ipod color. Zune gives a nice fresh taste of design Apple is far too boring.Although i'm not a big fan of the zune pass it still has a good side to it. MS is still new to this whole mp4 world so they can only and will improve. Just like gameing systems MS will rise to the top. Just got to play the waiting game
Posted by: Bmac | November 16, 2007 at 05:43 AM
Rare is the tech writer who finds value in a subscription service. Without that appreciation, most Zune reviews are going to be more negative than if they were written by a fan of subscription models. I have never owned an iPod mainly because it does not work with subscription services. I had a Sandisk when I was a Rhapsody subscriber, and now I have a Zune and pay for the Zune Pass. If the Zune has any technological shortcomings, in my opinion they are overshadows by the Zune's ability to work with an all-you-can eat subscription service. It's a dealbreaker for me.
Do I care that I won't own the songs if I stop subscribing to Zune Pass? No. First, I don't plan on ever canceling my subscription. Second, I don't want to actually own most of what I listen to. I listen out of curiosity, keep an album for a while and then dump it. (From years of experience, I know a huge music collection tends to go mostly unused.) Third, if I really want to own the music I'll buy it (and I buy quite a bit of music outside of online subscriptions at Zune and eMusic). Nothing in the Zune Pass terms of agreement says I can't buy music I really love. Fourth, if I like an album I heard on Zune I will first check eMusic to see if it's available.
Now, I understand that the subscription model doesn't make sense to a lot of folks. That's fine, but that also means they just don't get the appeal of a device like the Zune.
Posted by: Glenn | November 16, 2007 at 10:33 AM
"How about podcasts? Will the Zune support them out of the box without a bunch of finagling by the user? A search for "podcast" on the Zune website yields zero results.
I guess that answers my question"
If only your question is "I don't know how to use a search function tof ind what I am looking for." I am looking at my "OLD" Zune with the new software and it handles PODCASTS without a bunch of finagling. It is on the list of option on the Zune and in the Zune software. Please do better research next time before you try and bash something. Thanks.
Posted by: TITO | November 16, 2007 at 01:55 PM
WOULD YOU MS FANBOYS AND YOUR WHINY MUSIC SUBSCRIBING IDIOTS SHUT UP! SERIOUSLY A REVIEW IS A REVIEW. THE FACT IS APPLE HAS BEEN MAKING THE IPOD FAR MORE TIME THAN MS.. BEEN MAKING A M.PLAYER..MS SHOULD STICK TO GAMING AND SELLING [LOUSY] HARDWARE COMPUTERS. ALL THEYARE GOOD FOR IS HACKIN..APPLE PRODUCTS ARE FAR BETTER..ITS JUST A MATTER OF CHOICE. THE IPOD IS ICONIC. SOMETHING MICROSOFT WILL NEVER BE. THERE IS A HUGE INDUSTRY OF MUSIC AND FASHION AND APPLE INTEGRATES THEM BOTH. WOULD YOU CARRY A BRICK-LIKE ZUNE TO A RUNWAY.? I DOUBT IT. THINK ABOUT IT. ? WOULD YOU GO TO THE PORSCHE DEALER AND ASK TO SEE THEIR REFURB MODELS. THATS WHAT A ZUNE IS. A REFURBED COBY MP3 PLAYER FROM 2004 IN AN ABANDONED SECTION OF WALMART. I PREFER APPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE SLEEK, STYLISH AND [FAR] FASTER AND MORE POWERFUL THAN ANY LOUSY VIRUS INFUSED PC. THEY LAST LONGER TOO. SURE A TECHNOLOGY HAS PROBLEMS..AND THATS NOT THE ISSUE HERE. IM SURE SOMEONE IS GOING TO CRY AND HATE ME FOR THIS..BUT FRANKLY IM JUST GOING TO POST THIS AND LEAVE.
I DONT BOTHER WITH UN-ARMED WHITLESS IDIOTS ANYWAY. LA TIMES IS LACKING ANY PRESTIGE HERE WITH THIS MUSIC SUBSCRIPTION CRAP! THATS LIKE SUBSCRIBING TO A MAGAZINE JUST TO GET A FREE T-SHIRT AND REALIZING THE SHIRT SUCKS AND YOUR STUCK WITH 2 YEARS OF MAGAZINES THAT SUCK..
I AGREE WITH MOST HERE SAYING THE ZUNE SIMPLY DOSENT OFFER ANYTHING NEW OR INNOVATIVE THAT IS ACTUALLY USABLE. MUSIC/ART/FILM/FASHION ARE = IPOD.
QUOTE ME ON THIS.- I DONT REALLY CARE.
Posted by: ROM | November 16, 2007 at 10:48 PM
to answer your questions:
* How reliably do the Zune and Zune Pass handle subscription downloads?
The syncing with subscription content is top-notch. On the old software, you could drag-and-drop directly from the marketplace into the sync window and it would then download and sync them over. I haven't used the new marketplace that much, but so far, it's been the same.
* Can a Zune sync with more than one computer?
Yes. You have the option to sync as a "guest" (temporarily, to add, remove, or reverse-sync content without switching home computers) or change the home computer, which leaves the content in tact. This is a step up from last year, and so far, it's worked incredibly. It's also a million times more than can be said about the iPod.
* Microsoft has started offering MP3s... Does that mean subscribers can't listen to those tracks...without buying them?
No. They're available as both, just as other subscription songs can also be purchased a la carte (though with DRM). It really is the best of both worlds. If I buy a track individually, I don't want any DRM on it at all. With a subscription, I don't mind the DRM. The only thing that sucks about buying tracks is that you have to use Points (yech).
* Is there a way to load the Zune automatically with subscription downloads, based on your music preferences? Rhapsody and Yahoo offer this feature, and it kills.
Not that I know of. They _did_ file for a patent app on this, though (check out http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/showthread.php?t=23100). I'm a Rhapsody subscriber (and a Napster subscriber too). How do I do this? Or are you talking about the 'recommended" feature, which rarely-to-never works?
* Will the Zune work with competing subscription services?
It has a modified version of the PlaysForSure DRM that enables Windows Media Player (and P4S devices) to play Zune subscription content, but alas, not the reverse.
* Can you load the Zune directly with subscription music, without having to download the tracks onto your PC?
No, unfortunately. Though I imagine this is coming. I do have to say the killer feature that makes me not care about this is the wifi sync. I'm not a huge tech nerd, but it's just really convenient that the device syncs by itself, and will automatically load the music I've been playing on my computer. It's /really/ cool.
Posted by: Adam | November 17, 2007 at 06:43 PM
*Yawn*
Enough of the "Zune pwns iPod" crap. (rolling my eyes)
Posted by: Dizzle | November 17, 2007 at 08:25 PM
Re: Adam -- create Rhapsody channels, then transfer them onto your device. The channels are essentially playlists, but they're dynamic. So each time you sync, the playlists get updated with new stuff. The feature isn't available on every device, tho. And by the way, you responded much more quickly than Microsoft's crack PR team at Edelman. :-(
Re: Dizzle -- Get more sleep. Then try reading the post again, and the comments. The whole point was to say that comparing Zunes to iPods is too simplistic, a bit like measuring a Mexican restaurant against a French one because, hey, they're both restaurants!
Posted by: Jon Healey | November 17, 2007 at 09:12 PM
I've owned an Ipod before, and now I have a Zune 80gig. This thing is far and away better than the Ipod. In my opinion at least. It has increased functionality, i.e. FM radio, Easy Podcast menu, Big bright screen, the thing is nearly scratch resistant, I never have to putz around with a case. The best of all, every time there is a software update, it updates the software on the player. with my Ipod, I would have to go out and buy the next version every time if I wanted the updated software. This is a bully tactic that I really don't appreciate. Every time they update, the zune just keeps getting better and better. I am not comparing to the ITouch or Iphone, I consider those in a different part of the market. I want a high capacity player with a great deal of functionality. Oh, a few days ago there was yet another Zune update, now you can stream music from any free Wi-Fi hotspot, with a Zunepass that is. You can also listen to the radio, tag songs you like, and it will download next time you are connected to the computer or wifi. I like this a lot. I have already discovered a lot of good music I wouldn't have been introduced to otherwise. I do enjoy the Ipod by all means, it is a nice, sleek and simple design. But I do believe that it being the behemoth that it is, is one of it's greatest faults. Apple can disregard it's fan base because the damn thing is so popular. They know most people out there won't do any serious research, and will just go ahead and get the Ipod because it is what they know. Anyways, I'm done ranting. Both are great products, I just enjoy the Zune much more.
Posted by: thomas | September 19, 2008 at 01:06 PM
can you download songs from zune to your ipod?
Posted by: Tim Jackson | December 23, 2008 at 10:49 AM
Tim J -- That depends. The vast majority of permanent downloads from the Zune Pass service (the first 10 of which are free, the rest of them sell for 99 cents each) are MP3s, and those will work on an iPod. You can't beam them directly from a Zune to an iPod Touch, but you can transfer them from your PC to your iPod via iTunes. The unlimited monthly downloads from Zune Pass, on the other hand, are wrapped in a DRM that iPods don't support. Only Zune players do, in fact.
Posted by: Jon Healey | December 23, 2008 at 11:00 AM